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[Richard Ribeiro]: My name is Richard Ribeiro and my pronoun is he/him and I'm a student of University of Toronto, studying LGBTQ2S+ oral history. And I'm joined today by Luke Drummond, who was a social coordinator for OUT@UTM and again before firstly begin this interview.

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I wanted to confirm again that I have your consent to participate? [Luke Drummond]: Yeah. [RR]: Yeah. Excellent. And I remind you that if a question makes you uncomfortable or unsure I will gladly move on ahead. And with that being said, let's begin. So these first few questions we're gonna be introductory in

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nature. My first question is, how would you like to be addressed in terms of gender and sexuality. And what your pronouns? [LD]: Yeah. Uh, so my pronouns are he or they, uh, gender wise, trans man is fine. Yeah. [RR]: OK, excellent. Uh, so where were you born and where

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did you grow up? [LD]: So I was born in Toronto. Uh, but I grew up up north near Huntsville Cottage country. [RR]: And what language was spoken in your household as a child? [LD]: English and American Sign Language. My twin sister is deaf. [RR]: Oh, sign language, great! And how would you self

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describe in terms of race and ethnicity? [LD]: Uh, white. [RR]: White. And you mentioned before that you identify as a trans man. Can you discuss how you came to the understanding about your gender and sexual identity?[LD]: I think I came out when I was, like, 16 and then medically transitioned

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when I was eight. Eight, sorry, eighteen, nineteen so I've been kind of doing this whole trans thing for a while. I'm now 22 so I've been medically transitioning for about three years. [RR]: Um, and do you consider yourself as an activist? [LD]: Yep. Yeah, I do a lot of my activism

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on campus. Not right now because I have some medical stuff going on. Uh, but I used to work for UTM SEC as well as OUT@UTM and last year I was the trans coordinator for the Women and Gender Equity Centre. [RR]: Amazing. Uhm, And how long

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have you been involved in LGBTQ and queer communities and or different issues. [LD]: Uh, for about three years now, uh, so about when I moved to Mississauga. [RR]: Um, have you been part of any other queer groups, organization or support information networks outside of OUT@UTM?

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I know you mentioned a few before. And what has been your role in those other group? [LD]: Uh, so for UTM SEC I was a volunteer, Uh, for about two years, I believe I was involved with OUT@UTM as their social media coordinator for

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two years. And then I was involved as the trans coordinator for the Women and Gender Equity Centre for one school year. [RR]: Okay, And what do you think the greatest challenges are face, that LGBTQ2S+ people are facing the Peel Region nowadays? [LD]: In the

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Peel Region is definitely the medical access. Most people are going to Toronto to medically transition. I know that I am. And that's that's what I was advised to do as well was to kind of go downtown, use the downtown campus. Which is just totally not accessible

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at all. If you've ever taken the shuttle, you know that it's not accessible. Uh, yeah. So definitely medical access, and access to adequate counseling and therapy. [RR]: So you're saying that places like Mississauga will benefit if they had more, if they had better access to a

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medical help for people that are part of the LGBTQ community? [LD]: Totally. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people can't make that 45 minute commute just to kind of have, like, a one hour medical like treatment or therapy, but also have a 15 minute appointment with the doctor,

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which might not even go [indistinguishable]. [RR]: OK. And what would you consider your greatest accomplishments being a part of OUT@UTM? [LD]: Um, I met with the, uh, the HTC, like the head of the HTC, in order to ask them, like what they're doing with regards to LGBTQ+ healthcare. Specifically trans health

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care. Uh, and how they can kind of better kind of do that. Uh, is there anyway, that like we as a student group can kind of help them, that kind of thing. [RR]: That's great. Um, And what you say that the University of Toronto offers effective support for the LGBTQ student

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body? [LD]: No. [RR]: No. And what do you think that University of Toronto can do to offer more effective support or to improve its recognition of LGBTQ students? [LD]: Uh first, they've kind of got a lot of other stuff going on that they need to do. Especially downtown,

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uh, in regard to mental health services. I'm sure you've heard of the I believe, three student suicides that happened downtown last year. [RR]: Yes, very unfortunate. [LD]: Yes, so first they kind of have to get their mental health stuff working before they can kind of even begin to do

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anything with regard to LGBT+ health care. Uh, yeah. [RR]: And would you say that OUT@UTM is trying to improve its reach and recognition? [LD]: Yeah, uh, I believe that they're still meeting with the HTC on an annual basis or bi-annual basis to kind

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of meet, uh, with the head of the Health and Counseling Centre to see what they're doing on campus, uh, what they can do on campus. Especially just given, like, how little resources we have that sort of thing. [RR]: And, uh, in what ways do you specifically

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notice tha campus embracing inclusive and inclusiveness and equality. So here at UTM? [LD]: I mean, we try our best, but the difficulty is like it's a commuter campus. Students come here for class and they leave. Uh, and so people don't really like, want to go to events,

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right? They just want to like be here and then go home. Uh, so obviously, like we try to put on events, we try to raise awareness. We try to do campaigns. Uh, but that there is a lot of difficulty in just like getting students to come out. [RR]: And what are

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some of these events, if you don't mind me asking? [LD]: Totally. Uh, so I know that for OUT@UTM, one of the most popular ones is Queer Orientation. That's a really big one. So that happens in the last week of September in cooperation with the rest of

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the campuses on. So we do a lot of, um, events regarding awareness that like, hey, there are like queer clubs on campus. There is kind of places that you can go. Sort of saying, um, you know, we have, like, movie nights. We have giveaways. We have

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binder exchanges, that sort of thing. [RR]: No, that's great. Um, so what kind of things do you think the university can do to more effectively educate people about LGBTQ culture? [LD]: Totally. I definitely think having more queer professors on campus, openly queer professors on campus, obviously is really helpful.

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Um, having courses that use queer content is also important. I work with a lot of professors that are doing that. Obviously Professor Brown. But more people in the English department are kind of starting to do that now. Uh, yeah, just making sure that we're not tokenized in

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classes like, Hey, we have one lecture on queer content and nothing else. Just making sure that you continue to kind of do that through lectures. [RR]: Yeah, and I just want to stem off of that. So if you could create a course that focuses on LGBTQ content

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what would you choose for that course to focus on? [LD]: Totally. Uh, So as I'm an English major right now, we do have 269 which is queer writing. I don't know who it's taught by this year. I think it's Dr O'Flynn, but last year was taught by Margaret Feldman

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So that's a fantastic course. It centers around queer, mainly Indigenous black or brown literature that's kind of more modern as opposed to some of the old stodgy theory stuff. Yeah, that's great. [RR]: Yeah, that sounds good. Um, just just a moment. Have you ever experienced or witnessed any discrimination

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on campus? And if so, was it ever resolved, and how was it resolved? [LD]: Not to me personally, other than just like the general, like, I get misgendered in offices because they have, like, my legal stuff. Yeah, My legal stuff hasn't changed. But like I don't, I don't really care about

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that. Uh, I know that there are definitely a few queer couples who said that they felt unsafe on campus. I don't know their personal experiences of discrimination. Uh, but I've heard them secondhand. [RR]: And you believe the faculty is working effectively enough to kind of help

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resolve uh, certain incidents on campus? [LD]: No, I mean faculty's the same way, right? Like a lot of people, faculty live in Toronto. So they come here, they do their job, and then they get out. Uh, and there's nothing wrong with doing that, obviously, like Professor Brown does that. Uh, but yeah,

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it's they, they aren't, like, engaged with the culture on campus. Campus doesn't really give them enough time to engage with their students. [RR]: So you think the faculty should be educated more on how to deal with issues and to be encouraged to deal with issues should they arise?

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[LD]: Um, I think so. But I think more it's just that they don't get the opportunity to engage with students enough to kind of see those issues, resolve those issues, that sort of thing. [RR]: Do you feel that many schools around Peel embrace true inclusiveness of LGBTQ

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people in the community? [LD]: No, I don't really know too much about the Peel School Board itself. Um and so I don't really know. Like what the, particularly like the public schools are doing, the elementary schools, that sort of thing. Uh, but given what, like the

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culture at UTM, I would say no. [RR]: And I'm just curious. How would I make myself more approachable to people on campus that are part of the LGBTQ community? [LD]: Hmmmm. I don't really know. I think that a lot of the difficulty with UTM is the fact that no

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one approaches each other at all, uh, particularly students. And so I think that they there's this culture at UTM that we have to get past first of like students need to be more open to engaging with one another. Yeah. [RR]: And, um, what kind of things

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might let's see a trans person go through when they begin to acknowledge their true gender identity? [LD]: Mainly, I think of the issue is around medical transition. Obviously like social transition is difficult, and those are sort of the beginning steps for most people. But

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then if they want to immediately go into medical transition, the issues are like, are they rural? Do they have access to that sort of medical transition. Do they have access to you know, knowledgeable doctors, therapists, psychotherapists, that sort of thing. So, for example, I grew up

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in a town of, like 1000 people. I'm not gonna get competent trans care there unless I travel for hours to Toronto. Uh, which is not something my family can afford, right? Like there's gas money, that sort of thing. And even without my school's insurance,

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I wouldn't be able to afford medical transition. Like my testosterone is like $70 a vial. So every week, that's, like, $7 that I may not have. Um yeah. So I think the main issue in, uh, Peel specifically for trans folk is like having to go all the

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way out to Toronto, having to afford transit and then that might not even work. They might not have a competent doctor. [RR]: If someone wants of advice on what to tell the roommate, friends or family about being part of the LGBTQ community, how

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can someone like me help? Like say if my family member of my friend is uh... [LD]: So, um, I'd say two first offer, like safety. Be like, hey, is your family a safe place to come out to? Is there other the resources that you might have, uh, like,

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if your roommate, if it's your roommate, you could kind of avoid them, right? But if it's like your family and you don't live with them for the rest of your life, you might have to live in them for university, for financial reasons. Uh, definitely.

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just be like, Is that place safe? Can I offer you a safe place? You know, like, it might be like we have an extra room. Or it might just be like you've been come to my house if you need some space away from your family.

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[RR]: And in your opinion, what should someone who is a part of the LGBTQ community do if they want to come out in their school or place of work, but may be too nervous or scared to do so? [LD]: Yeah, um, I know that for me. My

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the thing that I did was I just went for it. But that's totally not something that's accessible to everyone. I am super lucky and just being able to go for it and having, not support from my family but having a little bit of support? Um, yeah. So

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I don't know if I really have any advice other than just making sure that your work place, uh, or home or school, whatever is a safe space first. [RR]: And how much has the inclusiveness of LGBTQ individuals changed since you first attended university as a student?

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[LD]: It's a lot better, uh, again, like we'd spoke with the HTC and they're getting a lot better at their care on their end. Uh, but obviously, like, we can't do too much just because it's it's a process. Uh, yeah, I know that medical access here is

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getting a lot better. I know that, um, profs are getting a lot more training and we're bringing our queer profs as time goes on, especially in the English Department with the creative writing major. We're getting in a lot more diverse faculty to kind of round out that area uh and

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so I think that the university is making progress. But a lot of it is like really slow just cause the whole, like administrative garbage. [RR]: But you're hoping maybe in the future that a lot more LGBTQ oriented courses going to start appearing for students to be able to

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apply them. [LD]: Totally. Yeah, I think that that's happening. I think that, uh, the queer writing course made that accessible, uh, I'm not sure about other departments, obviously, like it's, other departments are kind of their own thing. But I know that in sociology department as well. I used

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to be soc major sort out that they're doing stuff around gender as well. [RR]: Okay, great. Um, what do you think could or should be done from a political standpoint, to educate people about LGBTQ history or culture? [LD]: I mean, politically, we're not doing great because of

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the person we have as premier, obviously. Ick, uh, like I know, a lot of my medical stuff is getting cut because Doug Ford being in office. Uh, so I think that first we have to change administrations. I think that there's kind of nothing we can

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do until we kind of get all that figured out. Yeah. [RR]: And what is the question that you get asked the most frequently when you're interviewed or asked about LGBTQ content? I think mainly it's like, how do I address someone I know. How do I talk

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about someone I know. Um, especially with regards to people being non binary. There's a lot of like, I don't know how to address this person, how to deal with, like, the situation, cause it's totally new to me. Yeah, and mainly my advice with that sort of thing.

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Is just like you ask the person. And then you do what they ask, like, you know. Yeah. [RR]: Just a moment. And I'm not sure if this was mentioned before, but when you were OUT@UTM um, what was the communication used besides social media

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to kind of get the word out that OUT@UTM was a program for LGBTQ students to find refuge and to hang out? [LD]: So we do posters and that's our main other form of advertising is other than social media, we do posters around campus. The issue is that

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UTSMU limits you to eight posters for the entire campus. Yeah, which is absurd because there's more than eight buildings on campus. Uh, yeah. So mostly we'd do social media and posters. [RR]: And have you tried to petition the school to maybe increased the amount of posters that

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you can post so that you could raise more awareness? [LD]: Uh, we have a contentious past with UTMSU. So we would not be the people to do that. [RR]: Oh, OK. And in terms of social media, do you face a lot of hate when you're trying to promote OUT@UTM?

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[LD]: Not really. We get some, like Jordan Peterson fanboys emailing us garbage sometimes, but that's mostly just funny, like, we're just like did you see this email we got? But, like, yeah, otherwise, it doesn't really affect us that much. [RR]: Okay, great, um. And this is sort of, this is

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sort of a large question. But what would a perfect world look like for you? [LD]: Um I mean, mostly my issues, like I'm a communist, so capitalism would have to, like, not be a thing. Uh, but that's that's mostly where most of my concern goes. Uh, yeah,

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but I think in terms of like, you know, in, like, four years, what would a perfect world look like for me... [RR]: In terms of LGBTQ issues and whatnot? [LD]: Yeah, I think that like, I would like that to be better understanding and kind of more legal,

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um, acceptance of trans people, trans issues, particularly with regards to like non-binary people who are just now getting legally recognized. I think that the new sex ed curriculum is doing really well with that. For example, have a sibling who's 11 and they know a

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ton of stuff and it's great. Uh, and they're non-binary as well. And I'm like, that's so cool, so, yeah, I think that I think that we're getting there, but we're not gonna be quite there yet. [RR]: So it's a long road ahead. But, um... [LD]: Do you [indistinguishable] back the sex ed curriculum? [RR]: Yeah, but in five

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years, where do you hope to see that LGBTQ issues on campus will improve? [LD]: I think on campus and in the Peel Region, I think one I think that probably the harder sciences probably need a little bit more education. Uh, but I'm not really sure, and I'm not really

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the person to ask about that? I'm a soft science major. Uh, and I'd definitely like to see the HTC get a little bit more funding to be able to do stuff on campus. Uh, because they can't really do very much as opposed to downtown, uh, like

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they can't do IUTs? They can't always do safe injection sites, that sort of thing. Uh, so I'd like for them to be able to do uh, just more campus. Yeah. [RR]: Yeah. Okay. [LD]: We started at [indistinguishable]. [RR]: OK, just a moment. It's been 20 minutes.

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Are there any other questions that you would like to answer? Sorry, just a moment. [LD]: No, go ahead. I think you've done a wonderful job of coming up with questions. [RR]: Oh, thank you. Uh, well, I can ask a few more questions. Can you provide some examples of talks, incidents, activities that were

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emblematic of how you, how it felt for you to be an LGBTQ student at UTM? [LD]: Hmmm. Um, I feel mainly, like, most of my discussions with professors have been pretty good. Uh, yeah, I went to a talk that, uh, [indistinguishable] put on in downtown. It was pretty

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good. Uh, and that again is the unfortunate thing that a lot of it is downtown. Yeah. [RR]: And if you don't mind me asking when you're to graduate from UTM what do you hope to do to further LGBTQ, let's say

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inclusivity on campus or maybe within Ontario or Peel. [LD]: Uh, so I plan on graduating in 2021, hopefully, fingers crossed. Uh, So I plan on going on getting my masters and becoming a professor in digital humanities or the English Department, or like the English side of that.

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Um, mostly what I see happening in the digital communities right now is a lot of, uh, queer and trans people are making little twine games, little indie games that kind of promote awareness and they're doing a really great job at that, uh and so my plan

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is to kind of go on and do something similar. Yeah. [RR]: So you're hoping to maybe teach a course on that, at UTM? [LD]: Totally. And there is a course right now that I'm taking, Digital Humanities with Professor O'Flynn, who is a

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queer woman herself who includes a lot of queer content. Uh, but yeah, if I can seek to like make more content, that would be great. Uh. A lot of people have to do that through, like, academic funding, and that sort of thing. So. [RR]: Okay. So would you say

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that the group OUT@UTM group you mentioned before that you were sort off not on the best terms with the administration. Is there anything you think that the OUT@UTM group could do to sort of help improve that relationship or do you think that it

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might still stay? That strife is gonna continue to persist. [LD]: Yeah, it still could be strife. It's, you know, like we're not really doing anything. It's kind of all in there and, uh, you know, like it's they will target us for breaking rules the other

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clubs frequently break, like, really small ones, like having a door open, allowing volunteers in without an executive, that sort of thing, which, like no other club on campus follows ever, no one else has to do that. And we get chewed up for it. Uh so definitely, like it's just a ton of

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stuff on their end. And also they're just not doing enough for LGBTQ issues. Uh, they tend to you support us less with funding. That sort of thing. Uh, so mostly, even when we've worked to repair that, it just hasn't worked. Uh, so, yeah, it's more of a continuing issue.

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[RR]: So the administration is a little bit more passive aggressive in terms of trying to, um, belittle LGBTQ groups. But, you know, essentially provide other groups with better funding and whatnot. [LD]: Yeah, and, uh, two, they have an LGBTQ coordinator, but everyone's like, what do they do?

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Like I've never heard of them doing anything campus. Uh, and again, I'm saying that with, like, four years of experience with multiple clubs under my belt. Uh, I've never interacted with them. I don't know what they do, who they are. Uh, yeah. So. [RR]: Uh, were you

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familiar with any out faculty members or staff members when you first joined UTM or did you learn about them more as you went along, as you started to sort of, mingle more with the students in some of the clubs? [LD]: Totally. Uh, so when I first

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came to UTM, no. I met quite a few queer faculty members, obviously, like in the English department. Um, yeah, it's so funny. They're finding that, uh, a lot of the English department faculty, because our English department is mixed with theatre and drama, they're like, Oh, queer kids aren't in theater and

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drama groups anymore, which is so interesting. They find that they're either switching to digital humanities or they're going into the English department. That sort of thing. Uh, yeah, definitely. When I first joined campus no. Uh one of the things that UTM was trying to get was

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a a group of queer faculty members to kind of, uh like bi annually kind of come and interact with queer students. But we were never, never really able to get it off the ground because it's difficult to track down queer faculty members throughout like the multiple departments.

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[RR]: So you said that LGBTQ students would avoid programs such as drama. [LD]: Uh, they don't avoid them. They just don't go into them in the same way they used too. [RR]: Why do you think that is? Do you have any sort of? [LD]: I have no clue. Uh, yeah, it's just weird.

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Because all the queer kids used to be theatre kids, and now it's a little bit less so. Yeah. So it's weird. [RR]: Yeah, it's really interesting, because from myself I loved to perform in drama class. And I know that every

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professor that I've had or teacher, they would always be really, really nice, really inclusive, you know, they wouldn't leave you out. So, you know, I really find it interesting. Yeah. So. Oh, and in terms of your relationship with your family members regarding you coming out, they

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know? [LD]: Yeah, totally. [RR]: And how's your relationship with them? Has it improved? Has has there been any [indistinguishable] disagreements? [LD]: Uh, I mean it's gotten worse, but not like that bad. My family has some other stuff going on. So they're like you want to be called 'he' whatever. Like

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you're not dying on the streets. Whatever. Uh, so they're like, alright, you're doing great, because you you're not doing other dumb shit. So they don't really care. [RR]: Yeah. And, uh, have you felt included in the term LGBTQ plus? [LD]: Yeah. I mean, mostly, it's, I don't know. I

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don't know if it's a term I use often. I usually use queer, but I know that, like other people aren't comfortable with that, so I always try to ask first. [RR]: And, um, how would your race and ethnicity kind of shape your experiences as an LGBTQ person? Did you

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face more, um, I don't want to necessarily say hate, but more, um, perhaps disagreements with other people or... [LD]: No, I'm a white person. People generally are like cool, you're transitioning. Whatever. Uh, yeah, it's I have a lot more programs that are accessible to me, that sort of thing. For example,

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the way that the police treat black trans women right now is just awful. Uh, yeah, like I was in a car accident and I had a police officer who asked me which is stupid Uh and that's like about it as far as my interaction with the police.

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But it's like, you know, I wasn't like killed by the police or anything. So. [RR]: What would you say the police need to be a bit more educated regarding LGBTQ issues, and... [LD]: I don't think it's a matter of education. I just think that's what the police do,. Like they hate people

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they shoot, like, they shoot black people. That's their institution. It's an institutional problem. [RR]: OK. And, um, if you are in any particular sort of faith, has your faith sort of shaped your experience, being LGBTQ? Has your...If you are part of some sort of faith

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or religion has it helped improve your life or have they just put you down? Uh, I am not faith-based, my family is not faith based, uh, except for my dad recently started going to church, Uh, and I know is part of his AA meetings. Because AA meetings

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are partially religious. Um, yeah, but it hasn't affected my relationship with, like, God or religion at all, because I don't really have one. [RR]: And, um, when you were in high school, did you experience any transphobia or homophobia towards you? [LD]: I feel like I

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would have, like, there were other trans men who were, like, full on kicked out of school because they were bullied so much. But my brother is a gang member, so no one was gonna do anything to me. Uh, so I was pretty well protected. Uh, yeah. So nothing really happened. I

00:30:28.300 - 00:30:54.240

was fine. [RR]: And no racism whatsoever? [LD]: No. [RR]: OK. And if those moments that there were transphobic situations has your high school done anything to sort of mitigate those instances or...? [LD]: Not really. I mean, like, uh, the only thing since, like since I graduated there was an event where they

00:30:54.250 - 00:31:08.880

made a trans student play on the incorrect team and I called them out on it. Uh, but no, they haven't really done anything. Uh, they haven't really had to. But my mom works for the school board, so sometimes she's like, Hey, I'm experiencing this with this student. How

00:31:08.880 - 00:31:37.330

can I help them? Yeah. [RR]: With regards to Toronto, um, do you support the fact that Toronto has so many different LGBTQ uh, places for, you know, people to hang out, or to even have medical procedures and whatnot? [LD]: Totally. I mean, I used to

00:31:37.330 - 00:31:58.320

work in the Village, so I love the Village, the Villages is great. Uh, even though it's, like, totally gentrified, everything is way too expensive, uh but yeah, I mean, definitely. I mean, I got my procedure done in Toronto So whatever. Um, but yeah, it's it's true, has been a great

00:31:58.330 - 00:32:12.720

resource for me. [RR]: It's great. And is there any other location that you had a strong emotional connection and that that helped you when you when you came out to LGBTQ? [LD]: I mean, I worked in the Village like, last year, so it wasn't like I'm

00:32:12.720 - 00:32:37.700

coming out. And also, I like going to the village. Uh, but I don't I don't think I really had a strong connection to anywhere in particular. [LD]: Oh, just a moment. Do you know of any particular spaces or places in Peel that, uh, maybe the LGBTQ

00:32:37.700 - 00:32:56.820

people gravitated towards? [LD]: Um, I mean, I mostly just interact with the campus. So obviously at UTM. I believe the Peel HIV AIDS Center is a place where queer people go as well, because they also have a little bit of help there. Like they have a little bit more help than

00:32:56.820 - 00:33:17.020

like just Central Peel major hospitals I think. [RR]: So besides Mississauga and other places lacking medical support, there also needs to be more social support. More institutions where people, LGBTQ people can come together and sort of interact? [LD]: Yeah, yeah. I mean there, there's nothing in Peel, really.

00:33:17.030 - 00:33:55.360

[sound of papers rustling] [unidentified interviewer]: You mentioned, um you have been involved in the LGBTQ communities and issues for about three years. [LD]: Yeah, three or four. [unidentified interviewer]: In that, in that time span. Have you noticed any major changes? Or has it kind

00:33:55.360 - 00:34:14.670

of been a kind of passive...? [LD]: Most of the changes have been slow, or they've been in response to the new provincial government coming in so a lot of our funding is getting cut right now, so it's difficult to kind of do things. Uh, yeah. So

00:34:14.670 - 00:34:28.240

that's mostly where I want the changes to be coming from is like we would like to do this thing, but all of a sudden progress has been kind of stopped in the past like, two years. [unidentified interviewer]: Okay. And speaking of progress in terms...you mentioned the current PC government is

00:34:28.240 - 00:34:45.630

kind of not not helpful in any respect towards community issues. Do you think there is room, maybe. If there was a different administration and working with politicians and increasing awareness or increasing helping out the LGBTQ community? [LD]: Uh, yeah, I think especially, like in terms of

00:34:45.850 - 00:35:00.390

of funding and legal protections and that sort of thing. But obviously, like as a government, there's only so much you can do. And it's gonna be within the constraints of, like, what else can make them money as opposed to, like, any sort of real

00:35:00.470 - 00:35:26.710

change that usually happens on the ground but also like the bathhouse raids. That sort of thing. [unidentified interviewer]: Thank you. [LD]: No problem. [RR]: So, in general, would you say that U of T embraces LGBTQ ideals? Not just UTM but even downtown Toronto? [LD]: Downtown is a little

00:35:26.710 - 00:35:45.640

bit better. In terms of here, we have a long way to go, again it's just administrative, uh, and also it's just getting students to go to things, which is more about community, uh, or campus wide issue, like students don't want to go to things, they don't want to be here.

00:35:47.740 - 00:36:16.970

[RR]:Okay. And, uh, time, um and if you don't mind me asking, were there any moments in your life? Particularly maybe even at u UTM where you felt like you were empowered or even moments where you felt like you were belittled just for being part of

00:36:16.970 - 00:36:38.900

LGBTQ community? [LD]: Um, not really. I mainly have pretty good experiences here. Um, again, mainly, like my my experiences speaking with professors that were really empowering. Seeing other queer professors kind of rise to the ranks of being a professor at all has been really helpful. Uh, yeah, like

00:36:38.910 - 00:36:54.700

Margeaux Feldman. I believe she's up for her Ph.D. She has like a time tattoo. She looks very queer. She's great. Uh, and so to see, that was really empowering. Especially the person who like, has a ton of of like [indistinguishable] my face? Whatever. Um, yeah. So seeing people who

00:36:54.730 - 00:37:14.600

are openly queer who are visibly queer, uh, being able to be profs even if their work is kind of weird or their work focuses on queer sexuality uh, has been really... [RR]: What has your relationship been like with let's say with Margaret, was it? [LD]: Uh, Margeaux. [RR]: And Elspeth, so

00:37:14.600 - 00:37:31.110

that has been really beneficial, like thing in terms of being here at UTM and being empowered. [LD]: Uh, and also, uh, Larry Switzky. He's in the English department. Uh, he's MIA this year. He's going back. He's just like doing things in Chicago. Um, so he is

00:37:31.120 - 00:37:50.060

in the English and Drama, I believe he was the head of the drama department. Master, chair, executive chair or something. Um, so he does some really great work as well. Yeah. [RR]: Anyone else that you'd like to name that possibly did some great work at UTM or downtown Toronto? [LD]: Totally. So

00:37:50.070 - 00:38:09.830

Professor O'Flynn who I recently mentioned, um, she's doing some pretty good work here. Uh, downtown obviously Gwen Benaway who is not a professor downtown, but she works at the grad program. Uh, so she just won the Governor General's award for poetry. She's an Indigenous trans woman

00:38:11.370 - 00:38:30.940

and the Governor General Award is a really big deal, so that's really cool. So there's definitely a lot of queer activity going on, uh, downtown as well. [RR]: And speaking of Indigenous, have you encountered Indigenous LGBTQ students here at UTM or even downtown? [LD]: Um, no. Or even many Indigenous students at all

00:38:31.720 - 00:38:52.500

uh, which for me is strange because I live near a reserve and my niece is half Indigenous. Uh, so that's it's interesting that I don't see a lot of Indigenous folk that I know of? Yeah. [RR]: So would you say, just based on the knowledge you have that they're, um they're

00:38:52.800 - 00:39:10.810

Indigenous people are a particular LGBTQ community that face a lot of discrimination and backlash in society? [LD]: Yeah, Uh, even just Indigenous people in general, obviously like we like UTM itself just hired an Indigenous person to teach Indigenous Lit. And before we had an

00:39:10.810 - 00:39:29.190

Indigenous course not taught by an Indigenous, an Indigenous professor. So UTM definitely has some work to do on the administrative level to make Indigenous students feel welcome here. [RR]: If you don't mind me asking. Well, the name of the professor? [LD]: I don't, don't know his name, and I

00:39:29.190 - 00:39:51.840

haven't had, I haven't had them, but I know that they're there. Yeah. [Unknown interviewer]: Can I ask questions? Yeah. How would you recommend...um, uh, people approach coming out who are nervous or scared? [LD]: Um, hmmm? I definitely think that the first the first way to go about it is making

00:39:51.840 - 00:40:09.000

sure that you're safe and knowing who you're safe with are or in what space is it safe to come out because, like, you could be out at school and not out at home. You know, like just making sure that you have safer spaces to come out first before maybe

00:40:09.000 - 00:40:21.180

coming out in spaces that might be a little bit more dangerous or unsafe so that you have a support network first. Yeah. [Unknown interviewer]: Do you think it's difficult to find a safe space? Like, do you think people get nervous about whether or not

00:40:21.190 - 00:40:38.200

a place that is safe before they even approach that particular place? Like maybe it's not safe. Maybe it is. You know. [LD]: Yeah. Like a lot of people definitely like. My parents are gonna disown me, kick me out [indistinguishable] case, uh, but again totally, it might be the case, right? Uh, and

00:40:38.200 - 00:40:53.280

so you never know. [Unknown interviewer]: It's scary. [LD]: Yeah. I think totally, uh, again, like on campus, I know that a lot of students feel like they don't belong here, they don't have space here. They don't feel like UTM is like a community. They just feel like, like UTM

00:40:53.280 - 00:41:08.240

is a place they go, and then I leave. Uh, and so I think that, like, it would be great if the university could be that space for people, but I don't think it is, which sucks. [RR]: So would you say that LGBTQ people started moving to online platforms to

00:41:08.240 - 00:41:21.000

sort of engage that they feel some sort of trepidation of meeting in person? That they might be attacked or they might be looked down upon? [LD]: Totally. I know that a lot of queer people used to use Tumblr or but I think since their porn ban, I

00:41:21.000 - 00:41:37.570

don't think a lot of people do use it anymore. I think a lot of the spaces have moved to Twitter. Uh, but I'm not really sure. Maybe Instagram, uh, but yeah, definitely, online spaces are really important for queer folk. [RR]: Do you know of any other online spaces that people

00:41:37.570 - 00:41:54.560

might use specifically for LGBTQ people? [LD]: Huh. Not really. Because I think that the days of like having a specific like website or forum are kind of past, uh, they used to kind of have those spaces and they're not really available anymore. They're kind of outdated. So

00:41:54.570 - 00:42:14.700

I definitely think it's more of a loose kind of thing as opposed to having like, a very specific forum. [RR]: So how's the, when you were in, out at, in out of uh, sorry, OUT@UTM Have you considered, uh, making maybe an app for people

00:42:14.700 - 00:42:31.800

to reach out to UTM students who are LGBTQ to reach out, to sort of...Um, uh, mingle and coexist on campus? [LD]: Totally. So we did try to, uh, so UTMSU has an app. There's like a UTM app or something, back when they were

00:42:31.800 - 00:42:47.510

kind of doing that, I think, like, two years ago, they were really trying to promote this app. Uh, so we tried to kind of get that space running on the app, but we weren't able to do it because there wasn't any sort of like, not

00:42:47.520 - 00:43:01.230

blocking, but there wasn't any sort of, like, verification, like we couldn't be like, This person is definitely queer and this person is not trolling this person, like, is not going to send hate like that sort of thing. Uh, just because it was like an unmoderated space,

00:43:01.240 - 00:43:16.150

we were kind of, uh, nervous about doing that. Uh, but we do have a Tumblr. OUT@UTM has a Tumblr, uh, and other social media platforms where students can kind of send messages. And so that's really been our best way of

00:43:16.160 - 00:43:38.260

doing it. Yeah. [RR]: And before you mentioned that, you sometimes might get some Jordan Peterson supporter hate mail. Are there any other, uh, do you experience any other people sending some sort of hate messages or discriminatory messages. [LD]: Totally. I think that back when the white supremacist movement downtown was

00:43:38.260 - 00:43:51.640

really heating up, we had a little bit of that, [indistinguishable], but we had people from downtown come and like poke white supremacist fires up a few years ago? I don't know if you remember that? Um and so I think we we had some of

00:43:51.640 - 00:44:09.870

them target us well. Uh, but it was not like a big thing. That was like, really, we got, like, two emails from these stupid fascists. But yeah. [RR]: So did they target University of Toronto specifically or OUT@UTM? [LD]: OUT@UTM in specific, and U of T in general.

00:44:10.720 - 00:44:31.410

Yeah, but that was back when putting a plague fascist professor was super popular downtown in like 2016, 2017. Uh, yeah. [RR]: And did the university of Toronto or the administration address these issues or try to resolve it. Tried to offer support for people that felt emotionally distressed regarding the situation? [LD]: Not

00:44:31.410 - 00:44:45.920

really. And the thing about downtown is like it's, it's literally just embedded in the city. So the thing is like, if there are people who are putting up like fascist propaganda around the city, I can't really do anything. It's a poster. It's there. It's technically like

00:44:45.930 - 00:45:02.970

on their campus. But it's not like a campus thing if that makes sense. Uh, if you have seen downtown, it's, it is Toronto, and I have built insanely, so they can't really do anything with regards to that. I believe the UTM campus put out a

00:45:02.970 - 00:45:16.360

statement, but I don't really remember, and most of the posters were torn down pretty quickly, and I don't think there was like razor blades in them, like there usually is. So yeah, so I think it was, like, kind of thing that happened. And what

00:45:16.360 - 00:45:37.810

not. Yeah. [Unknown interviewer]: Can I ask one more thing? Are there any books or films you would recommend to people who want to become more educated about LGBTQ content? [LD]: Huh? Um, I don't recommend older stuff generally. I know that a lot of people like to be like, here's this big book on theory, I hate doing that

00:45:38.380 - 00:45:58.640

which I'm saying is we're in this book like theory, uh, kind of space. Um, you know, um you know, uh, but I definitely think that there's a lot of really great content coming up now. Uh, Transparent was pretty good. I believe that there's another one that's

00:45:58.640 - 00:46:18.460

coming up. Another, like trans really...Oh, Pose. Pose on Amazon's pretty good. There's a lot of like indie comics coming out around Toronto. Uh, there's a lot of really cool stuff at, uh, the Glad Day Bookshop downtown on Church Street. Uh, and they hold events all the

00:46:18.460 - 00:46:37.900

time. Um, yeah, but there is a lot of like, really cool stuff that's coming out especially like in streaming services and Netflix, where they can kind of do more experimental stuff [Unknown interviewer]: Awesome. Thank you know. [RR]: Um and, OUT@UTM. Has the group ever brought in some speakers or presenters with

00:46:37.960 - 00:46:57.150

in terms of books or trying to educate people that are non LGBTQ? [LD]: Uh, we're not really big enough to do that. We don't really have the funding. Uh, so the Women and Gender Equity Center, along with the Equity and Diversity Office and usually with a little

00:46:57.150 - 00:47:16.340

bit of support from the UTMSU, uh, brings in a speaker every November 20th, which is the Trans Day of Remembrance. So we read the names of trans people who were murdered or killed or committed suicide that year. Uh, so it's a vigil, a very serious event. Uh,

00:47:16.350 - 00:47:34.220

so we bring in speakers for that every year. I usually used to do that, but that's not my job this year. Uh, but yeah, it's usually about a $200 honorarium and then in addition to that the whole week after we give away gender affirming items up to, I

00:47:34.230 - 00:47:57.820

believe $200 depending on the budget. [RR]: And, uh, when these presenters and speakers come, is there a large turnout or do you feel that people aren't as interested as...in participating. [LD]: There isn't, which I understand it's a very serious event, but also it's like the middle of midterms like November

00:47:57.820 - 00:48:14.030

20th is midterm season. There are times when I couldn't even make the event because I had class, which is silly. Like, you know, I have spent like, a month like making this event and I can't go. But yeah, like I'm not, I don't judge people for not coming out cause

00:48:14.030 - 00:48:28.480

they're some times when I'm like, this event is really serious or this event is going to take up my time that I don't have, uh and I can't go. And I think that that's fine, you know. [RR]: And as you mentioned, only putting up eight posters means it's tougher to

00:48:28.480 - 00:48:44.290

actually sort off publicize, to get people to, encourage people to come too, right? [LD]: Yeah. Especially like when we like made funding for something that might be a little bit more exciting. Like performers. Uh, you know, like, when I was working with SEC, we had this really

00:48:44.290 - 00:49:07.840

cool, like burlesque performance which was really great. Uh, and still, we weren't getting the kind of turnout that we might have, like, six or seven years ago. So yeah. [Unknown interviewer]: Yeah, actually, again, related back to the question of progress

00:49:07.850 - 00:49:31.800

and politics, if you would put forward a, like a suggestion or proposal. What would that proposal focus on, towards a politician? [LD]: Um, I think right now, the NDP's doing some really good stuff. Um, I believe that they're working towards more trans healthcare initiatives across Ontario. Uh,

00:49:31.900 - 00:49:48.710

my big thing, because I come from a rural area is making sure that those spaces are accessible. That knowledge is accessible in rural areas where you might have a doctor who, like, graduated from medical school, like, 50 years ago, and they don't know any

00:49:48.710 - 00:50:03.970

new knowledge other than stuff that they're, like, required to learn by, like, the government uh, so I think it be really cool if that was kind of implemented in rural areas where they, like, know how to prescribe things. That sort of thing. [Unknown interviewer]: Uh, so major focus on medical accessibility

00:50:04.110 - 00:50:29.260

and coverage. Very good. Thank you [LD]: No problem. [Unknown interviewer]: And actually just to time stamp it. It has been 50 minutes, 50 minutes. Thank you. Yeah. [RR]: And is there anything? Is there anything else that you'd like to discuss with us that maybe we haven't possibly asked or addressed? [LD]: Um, totally. So

00:50:29.270 - 00:50:47.000

I am extremely poor. I live very far below the poverty line. My dad makes the 13K a year. I make about 22 at best, and six of that goes towards my tuition. Uh, so most of my like, inaccessible stuff has been because of costs, right?

00:50:47.010 - 00:51:02.850

Like I had a newer surgeon because of cost instrument that I had to go and get a revision for surgery. It's like you don't want to do surgery twice, but like, you know, they're definitely medical barriers there. Another thing that I would suggest for

00:51:02.860 - 00:51:24.040

a politician would be safe injection sites. So I do my testosterone via injection. Uh, a lot of trans women do their estrogen via injection. And so the thing that we need is like access to needles um, access to safe and clean needles that aren't, like, very expensive. I'm very

00:51:24.040 - 00:51:41.390

lucky that UTM just like gives me needles when I ask for them, uh, but a lot of people might not have that resource, uh so they might be using older needles to inject. Right? Uh, and so definitely like safe injection sites are important to me. Especially as someone

00:51:41.390 - 00:51:59.680

who, like my brother is homeless on the streets of Toronto and a heroin user. And in the village, people overdose all the time. So safe injection sites are super important. [RR]: So, in general, uh, any sort of medical support is a top priority. [LD]: Yes. Yeah. Uh,

00:52:00.120 - 00:52:16.330

yeah. Like, for example, in the Village, businesses are required to carry Narcan on them at the front desk in case someone overdoses on street, uh, or at a bus stop or that sort of thing. Uh, yeah. Right now, the main issue in the queer community as

00:52:16.330 - 00:52:35.470

far as I know is meth, uh, in bathhouses, that sort of thing. Because I've also done research on the Toronto bathhouse scene. Uh, which are clubs that gay men go to to have sex. Uh, the main issue there right now is meth, uh, and so safer spaces

00:52:35.470 - 00:52:58.780

for meth pro er addicts, uh, are super important. [RR]: And you wouldn't say the Ford government is not doing enough to support the... [LD]: No, I mean, like, definitely there is an opioid crisis. I've seen, like several members of my community die from opioid use. And my brother is

00:52:58.790 - 00:53:21.550

on his way. So yeah, like it's there's definitely not enough, um, support around, uh, Trans and LGBT people who are addicts, which is, like quite a few. Uh, so yeah, safer spaces for people who use is important, like AA. Like I said, it's, it's a religious

00:53:21.550 - 00:53:47.810

space. And so sometimes queer people might not feel comfortable being in that space. [RR]: Okay, Brendan, anything? Okay. Um okay, that concludes our interview. Thank you for sharing your story. That was amazing. And it's honestly, it's been a great pleasure. So. And if you wish to inquire

00:53:47.810 - 00:53:59.830

more about this interview, feel free to email our Prof, Elspeth Brown. You know her very well so. And again, I just want to say thank you. I mean, it's truly a great oral history that we collected. So.