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[Kate Ferrin]: really, really appreciate it. [Gabriel Tran]: Hey, anything to help the queers, right? [KF]: Yeah. Hell yeah. Okay. So are you good if I start? OK awesome. So today's date is February 27th, 2020. My name is Kate Ferrin. I'm here with Gabriel Tran. If you could just give me your verbal

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consent. Um, what you're about to say if you have anything that you want struck from the record, just let me know afterwards and I could do that. And I'll also be sending you what we take from the interview. And then you can decide if you want

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to move forward with that information. [GT]: Okay. Sounds good. [KF]: Awesome. And if you do have any questions about your rights as a narrator or how the work is unfolding, just contact Dr Elspeth Brown. I can provide you her email and her phone number or the ethics review

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office at the university. [GT]: Okay, Good. [KF]: Perfect. If you don't mind by starting by stating your name and your pronouns. [GT]: Okay. My name is Gabriel Tran, and I go by he/him pronouns. [KF]: Okay. What program were you enrolled in at the university? And when did you

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graduate? [GT]: Um, I did a double major in biology and anthropology at UTM. And I graduated in May of last year 2019. [KF]: Awesome. Um, do you think your program had an accepting culture in which you felt you could be yourself? And if you could just

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explain? [GT]: Um, I would say the program was neutral towards it. Um, there wasn't, uh, much reason for self expression in the biology aspect at least because we're all there for, um uh, it's a hard science. So there's not really much room or reason to, you know, self

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express. Um, on the anthropology side, there was plenty of room to be yourself. Um, there were...It's a social science, for the most part. So whenever there were class discussions, people come in with whatever stories they had, whatever backgrounds they had, whether it was, uh, cultural,

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racial, sexuality, gender, everything was like laid out on the table and, uh expressed well, and it taken in well as well. So, um, yeah, I think there's a lot of, um, discretion when it comes to which field or program you're in when you are trying to

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self express. And there's, uh it's kind of common sense where one field might not need any of that because you're not there. You're not in a field that necessitates, uh, the human identities or human expression. Right? And, for example, in, uh, in a dissection room for

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animal physiology. You wouldn't. There is no point of bringing in, uh, your personal background to it, right? [KF]: Yeah, because we've interviewed quite a few people, but they've all either been from the theater program or the English department, so it's really exciting to get someone from the

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sciences just to see that different perspective. So this is good stuff. [GT]: Glad to be of help, then. [KF]: Yes. Did you ever feel like you needed to hide your identity at all to fit in on campus? [GT]: Um, not particularly. [KF]: That's good. Um, no, I'd say no. There were plenty of good outlets if

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I ever felt like I needed them to express myself. Um, the thing, though, is that you kind of have to go looking for those outlets. Um, they don't exactly advertise them. Uh, extremely well, so if you do need to, talk about yourself or express yourself in

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some way, um, in a non academic sense, then you kind of have to go looking for that. [KF]: Um, in this instance are you referring to like the queer identifying groups? Like OUT@UTM? Groups like that? [GT]: Yeah. Um, they have, like, posters, and,

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like during the, um, clubs week at the beginning of the semester. Um, they have their own table and everything, but, uh, it's aside from those, like, there's not ah, lot of vocal advertisement, I would say. Or at least I didn't notice it myself. I shouldn't speak

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on their behalf, but it wasn't easy to, um, be passively conscious of what they were doing. [KF]: Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of things that before I'd written these questions for the interview, I didn't even know existed on campus just because I had never I've

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never seen anything about them before. Like, I don't know if you've heard of Queer Orientation. Do you know what that is? [GT]: No, I don't. [KF]: Okay, so I'm going to read you what, like the website describes it as. So, it's an annual week of LGBTQ

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focused programming across all three campuses of U of T during the last week of September. Queer Orientation is an opportunity for new and returning students, staff and faculty to make connections, engage in activities and have discussions related to LGBTQ+ communities. So,

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yeah, I didn't even know that existed. Um, of course... [GT]: Yeah, this is the first I'm hearing of it, too. [KF]: Right? And apparently it's been around for 20 years or something, so that's definitely a huge thing. I I don't know if it's UTM that maybe isn't promoting

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it or if it's just they're promoting it, but not in the right mediums. Um, but that's I think, definitely something that the campus can work on. With that being said, were there queer classes while you attended university, for example, queer writing, this class, Queer Oral History.

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If so, did you take these classes? Why or why not? [GT]: Um, I was not aware of any. I was not aware of any specific queer aligned classes. I knew that there were queer studies on campus, but my, my program didn't really, um allow me the flexibility

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to take those. Uh, if I were to take them, then it would just be like an elective. And I wasn't sure if I had the pre work prerequisites to take them in the first place. [KF]: I believe there are three, um, queer based classes at

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UTM right now, I want to say, but this class isn't always Queer Oral History. It changes every semester, but it would be nice I think if they added a few more. I don't, I personally think that that would be a good addition. Um, if you had the time, would

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you have taken it or do you think that it wouldn't have been worth? [GT]: I definitely think, um, I would have taken it if I did have the time. I do consider myself a bit of a creative. So queer writing would have been right up my alley

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personally and queer oral history. I mean, oral history. Something that we slightly cover in anthropology. So that would have been, like, you know, uh, like, learning about the history of our people. Right? So that would have been great as well. But being in the sciences and

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having a bit of a career change midway through my undergrad career, uh, there wasn't a lot of room to do that. So if I did have time, then yeah, for sure. [KF]: Yeah, that's fair. Um, what was the campus culture and climate like? [GT]: Okay, Um, campus culture,

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in general or queer specific? [KF]: Just in general. [GT]: Um I oh, I don't have too much of uh, um comparison to draw off of. I've only been down to the St George campus, maybe twice, not during class hours. So, um, to talk about UTM's

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campus culture, I would say we're location wise. We're a little bit isolated from, you know, um, city life and all that kind of stuff that St George is privy to. So the campus culture I make this comparison often is kind of like just a larger high

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school in where a lot of people see the same people all the time when you're on campus. Um, it's like you're seeing the same people, Uh, whether you're commuting or whether you're living on residence. There's not much, uh, not as much new stuff going on.

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So you're kind of set with your either your cliques or your groups for a while for your tenure here. So I would say the campus culture is a bit, um, isolated, insular, um, reminiscent of high school. [KF]: Yeah, honestly, when you said that my jaw dropped. I was

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like that is so true. [GT]: Yeah, like location based we're in the middle of a forest in the suburbs. So it's kind of hard to... [KF]: So I live in Mississauga, so I knew, like, where it was from the beginning. But I have a friend

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who came from Nova Scotia, and when she came here, she thought UTM was downtown. [GT]: Oh, Okay. [KF]: So it's crazy, right? You just you don't...If you don't know, You don't know. I can't imagine, like the shock that that would be because Mississauga is definitely not Toronto

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[GT]: You come down to university expecting Oh, it's gonna be this eye opening experience, but then UTM, although it's beautiful. Uh, it's not that freeing experience that you might have had expectations for, that they always talk about in, uh, cinema or or in the news. Right?

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[KF]: What do you think could be improved within UTM's campus for inclusion of queer identifiers? [GT]: Mm hmm. Improvements. Okay. During my time there, they did add some, uh, gender neutral, uh, bathrooms. But as far as I know, since I've been there there, those bathrooms...there's

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a couple in Deerfield Building and one in the student center. I think that something they could do is increase the amount throughout campus because, uh, if you're, if you need to go to the bathroom and not every bathroom is accessible to you, then you're gonna

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have to walk a bit to get to either one of those locations. I don't know if it's changed since then, but that's something that that I was thinking about while I was there. [KF]: Yeah, Davis just redid their bathrooms, and they're still, there still isn't a universal

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bathroom so that's interesting. [GT]: Exactly. Right. If you just did it, it wouldn't be that much more trouble to put up a sign or something or redo it a little bit. Yeah. So bathrooms are definitely one thing. Um, nothing else is coming to the top of my

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head right now. [KF]: Fine. Okay. Um, were you out in university? [GT]: Yes. I was. Um, in my program, there were, I don't think that there were many other out people so there wasn't too much to talk to them about. I have a feeling that in, um, the

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humanities or other social sciences, there might be more of an incentive to, uh, talk about one's queerness and such but I don't think I had as much of an opportunity towards that. Either because queer people who might be driven away from the sciences or, uh, they

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just didn't feel comfortable coming out. [KF]: So what was it like for you to identify as queer when you were a student? If you knew that, um, you are probably one of the only people within your area that were at least out? [GT]: Mhm. Um, it was a

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little bit isolating. Um, sometimes I would think to myself like, Oh, in alternate life. What if I did go into theater or writing or something like that? Got to meet more queer people. Um, there were a few out people. But when you're choosing, like

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your specialists or your diverging fields, then you basically never see them, even though you might have had, like, the first couple of years of class together. And the class sizes are so huge that you don't learn that they exist until maybe third year, where you've missed

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the opportunity to meet in the first place. [KF]: Yeah, that's my only issue with science classes like under that distribution I find that because the classes are so huge it's almost impossible to meet anyone new because you're so set in your ways of the people you have

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anyways, there, whereas any humanities class I've taken, it's like no more than 25 people, so it's definitely very different. Um, do you think you're sexual identity impacted your time at UTM? [GT]: Um, I don't think so. I think that what I learned at UTM

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uh, informed my identity more than the other way around. Especially in my anthropology classes. There was one class I took, which was evolution of human sexuality. Uh, it was more of, ah, biological analysis of the development of sexuality and stuff like that. But towards the

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end, we did cover a bit of, uh, queer top, some queer topics. So there was a little bit of stuff that informed me of my own identity from my classes. Other classes that, uh, informed me of my identity were like things like, um uh, linguistic

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anthropology. Like what, how the language we use affects us, and Yeah. So, um, it made me analyze my own identity more than my identity um affecting my experience at school. So basically the reverse of the question is how I felt. Yeah. [KF]: Interesting. Do you ever

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or did you ever feel any pressure? To like, have a role to be the voice of the LGBTQ+ community within your program because there weren't as many? Or would you say it's the opposite? [GT]: Um, okay, so in high school I felt

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that pressure. I was the leader of the Gay Straight Alliance club at my high school and then coming to UTM the campus was just so large that I felt a little bit overwhelmed to continue that responsibility. Uh, and seeing that the queer spaces in biology

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uh, was...the pressure kind of stifled my my, uh, call to responsibility. So, if anything, the lack of pre-existing support there kind of became a self-fulfilling cycle, I think. A self filling, vicious cycle. So there were. There were some, uh I believe there were some

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staff that were queer themselves, but without naming any names, they didn't... professionally, they wouldn't disclose that. So, so there was no, um, explicit support from staff either that I was aware of. So, yeah. [KF]: Are you aware if any of the class or maybe one or two.

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But are you aware of if your classes had that positive space sticker on the doors and...? [GT]: Uh, some I can't remember specifically which professors, But some professors did have those, um, positive space stickers on the doors. Personally, I didn't go extremely often to office hours or, uh,

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professor's spaces, but I do remember, especially in the anthropology department. There were plenty stickers around there. [KF]: Would you say that that effort, I guess, is the way to put it ,made you feel more comfortable at all. Or it was just one of those things that... [GT]: Yes,

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for sure. Absolutely. Um, before when I was speaking toward about biology, I forgot to mention anthropology. Anthropology was the complete opposite. Um uh, there was uh, a lot of, um, there was a lot of queer support. Uh, just not explicit during class. It was more like a Hey,

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anyone ever needs, um to talk or mentorship, then I'm always here kind of a deal, you know, like, uh, kind of uh, um, hidden understanding, I guess. [KF]: Yeah. It's interesting that you were able to see, like, two completely. Yeah, I would say completely different departments.

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And like the way they were run. That's really interesting. Um, did you ever feel any? Oh, no. I already asked that. Sorry. What is something that you wish you had been apart with? I'm sorry. I'm going to start over. What is something that you wish had been a part

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of your student experience at UTM. Are you someone that would have really liked a specific club? Did you feel represented and heard as a queer student on campus? [GT]: Mm. Okay. When...I did join the OUT@UTM group during my first year and, um,

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without, uh, saying any names, there was a bit of turmoil with the leadership. So I kind of ducked out of that when I caught wind of what was happening. Um, and I didn't look back since. I think in my later years after leadership and management might

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have been reestablished, I wish that I did take a second chance on it because there were some events that they posted that I thought, Hey, I should have gone to that, or I might have missed out. And now I'll never know. But it was like

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that formative experience in first year that kind of drew me away from it. So that's a regret I have. Not, um, not re- examining what it would be like in the next three years of my university career. [KF]: Yeah. Is there anything you would say to say

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someone who was just like you who came into your program? Would there be any, like, tidbits or I guess, advice. So you could say... [GT]: Make friends with people from other programs. Yeah, that's yeah, for sure. Whenever I would study for my biology tests, chemistry tests

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and stuff like that and I had a class coming up next in, like, Deerfield or somewhere, I would see on the main floor, all these theater kids, uh, just going about freely. And I would be so jealous, like, man, they seem like they have such

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a great social life. In contrast to me studying for these tests that are just walloping me. So making friends with people from other programs just to take your head out of the books for a while. That's my highest bit of advice, and it's when you get

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introduced to one person, you get introduced to more. And that's how like queer social circles have...are thriving now. It's like everyone has connections. So that's something that I wish I established way earlier. So a new person coming to UTM, that's what I would recommend

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making connections early. [KF]: Yeah. Okay. So do you have any questions for me or anything you'd like to finish our interview with? [GT]: Um, I have a couple questions about the courses you're taking. Yeah, Queer oral history. Right. Okay, So what kind of topics do you cover in

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this class? [KF]: We started...So, we get about two readings a week. Um, they mainly are strictly about oral history and how they connect to um, not reinventing, but rediscovering I would say, queer history and how it was so, like, neglected before and the importance of it.

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Um, we have studied how scholars didn't used to even consider oral history a type of history. Um, but that's just exactly that's just a problem within itself. But to be honest, our main thing within this course is building this archive. So we get information. Um, honestly,

00:24:10.160 - 00:24:25.970

because I've interviewed some of my friends and you learn things that you have no idea before that had even happened on campus. Um, but really, I would say it's around surrounding this archive and just process like it's not an easy process. And I think that's

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what Dr Brown is really trying to show us. Is that something that people think is so simple or that's not even considered a type of history is representing an entire group. And if we don't do it for the UTM campus, then so many

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different people's histories are being erased from UTM. [GT]: Absolutely. That is very noble work. Yeah, and I think that oral history, especially in a queer lens, is so important because of the great wealth of oral history that was lost due to the HIV AIDS crisis.

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so we kind of have to make up for what we have now before the next disaster. Hopefully doesn't happen, right? [KF]: Yeah, you have to buildup from at least what you have. And of course, um ah, lot of oral history is subjective because it's all people's personal

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recollections, which can sometimes be difficult. But when you're getting as many, um, contributors as you can, you can build those stories together and on, like it's truly just been...I wouldn't say eye opening class but just such an educational one. Like I've learned so much. [GT]: For

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sure, for sure, talking to, so many different people like. That's one great thing about UTM is that the diversity here? Although it's not on, I wouldn't think that it's on the same level as St. George. It's still a great wealth of many people. So because...

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[KF]: Compared to other schools, like we do have quite a diverse group. [GT]: Yeah, yeah. And it's also interesting to me that in terms off other forms of media, cinema, news, social media like, a lot of the queer voices tend to be, um, uh, limited in terms of racial diversity, I

00:26:27.190 - 00:26:47.760

would say. Yeah. So the racial diversity here having, uh, queer and people of color, uh, talking about their experiences, I think is, um it just serves to benefit the archive even more. [KF]: Exactly. It just gives you a much more like enriched experience, I would say, because you're not

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only getting, like, one margin marginalized community, unfortunately, you're seeing so many different ways. Um, how do I say it? I'm trying to think I'm imagining like a cell. And you know how it has different branches. Yeah, like everyone is just like a little different branch. [GT]: Yeah,

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like we're all united by the same, like, essential idea or experience of being queer. But each different branch has, like, connects to different other cells, right? [KF]: Yeah. It's honestly, just been such a great experience. I'm so glad I took it. Yeah, that's great. [GT]: That's great

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to hear. [KF]: And that is the end of the interview. I don't know if it's said it on the consent form. I cannot remember, but you do get a $30 gift card for participating, so we will send that to you. I will email that to you

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as soon as we get them. As well as I'm gonna edit or just pretty much put it onto MyMedia this interview. And then if you can just re-listen to it and make sure you're okay with everything you said and if it's okay to be

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put online, um, just into, like UTM's database, that would be amazing. And that's pretty much it. [GT]: Yeah, for sure. Okay, great. [KF]: Thank you so much Gabriel. I really, really appreciate it. [GT]: Hey, anything to help? Thank you. [KF]: Okay. Have a good one. [GT]: Thank you. You too. Goodbye.