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[Bronwyn Keough]: Okay, first of all, I will start by just stating the date and whatnot. So it is February 20th 2020. Um, and my name is Bronwyn Keough and I'm asking for verbal consent on the recording of this interview from the narrator which is yourself. So do

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you give consent for that? [Arielle Kersey]: I consent. [BK]: Great, thank you. So yeah. Thank you for participating. First of all, could you please state your name and pronouns? [AK]: Yes. My name is Ariella Kersey. I use she/they pronouns. There we go. [BK]: Okay, great. So could you start by

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just telling us a little bit about yourself and kind of in general, like what you are I guess doing right now in, um, BC, in school. [AK]: Sure. So I graduated from UTM just last June and then moved out to Vancouver to start my master's

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degree at the University of British Columbia currently doing coursework. But then later on, working on body horror and the queer post human aspect of that. [BK]: Whoa! Cool. Thank you. So what program were you enrolled in at UTM? [AK]: Um I was doing a specialist in the

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Department of English and Drama. [BK]: Very good okay. And, um from what years, like dates did you attend UTM? [AK]: September 2015 to June 2019. [BK]: Okay, cool. Very good. Okay, So, first of all, I know that you were...I'm not sure the extent of

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campus organizations you were involved in at school, but I do know that you were involved in the English and Drama Student Society. So a bit of a broad question here, we'll get more specific as the interview goes on. But first of all, what was your experience working

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with campaign organizations? [AK]: I had a really good experience working on campus organizations. They're always very kind of wholesome, welcoming places with a lot of space for development. I did work with the English and Drama Student Society for three years. And I also occasionally volunteered with

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the OUT@UTM group. So, yeah, Both of those were very great experiences. Um, wonderful environments, very open. Very kind of progressive nice and free. [BK]: That's good. That's good. And so would you say that That's the kind of the same, uh, the same thing you have

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to say for holding a leadership position in these organizations. [AK]: Hmmmm. I would say so. I think holding a leadership experience was again one of those things where there's a lot of trust involved and a lot of kind of freedom to do whatever felt right, which

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you know, is a bit stressful, but also really great. Yeah. Um, yeah. No, I think it was a really great experience again, Um, left room for a lot of wonderful connections. [BK]: How did your life change upon coming to UTM like leading up to September 2015?

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[AK]: Wow. So funnily enough before coming to UTM I was in a bit of a funk because I thought I was going to theatre school. Uh huh. As happens, upon coming to UTM and kind of found a community and environment that

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kind of fostered me and helped me kind of find what I was actually most interested in and what felt right to me and what kind of called to me at the time, which ended up being English. It also helped me kind of grow a lot in

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confidence and independence partly because living in [ringing noise]. Sorry about that. [BK]: That's OK. [AK]: Yeah, I would say those are the kind of the big ones, I would say. [BK]: Okay. And how do you upon leaving you UTM then? Like what I guess, um, changed for you. And I

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guess the same standpoint because, you know, like entering university, especially undergrad and then leaving. That's a lot of big life changes leading up and then leaving and then moving across the country. [AK]: Oh, boy. Um, definitely kind of the months surrounding leaving UTM were a very

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turbulent time. Um, obviously, there's the typical things like, Oh, I'm out of undergrad w're no longer in like that little safety bubble in a program that's more of a career than an education. I'm moving across the country. I also because I have a horrible sense of

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timing. You know what else I should do right before moving across the country? Come out, start transitioning. That's a great idea, which Okay, sure. So I also did that around...I think I started around March, April or June, kind of March to June, period. So right around kind

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of sending in my last papers to graduation, so there were definitely kind of ah lot of big and intense changes happening right as I left, um, that were all very enriching, but also very, very draining. I think leaving university don't quite realize how much you can

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get overwhelmed by what's around you because you're used to being kind of like the area where everything is more or less balanced for you. You think that you have this kind of control and you do like a lot more than you had before your undergrad. But

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even that is really still like training wheels. [BK]: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. [Kate Ferrin]: Yeah. I'm scared to witness that for myself. So scared of graduating. [BK]: On that note as well. How do you find, um and this is a bit of uh, first of all, I'm sorry, where you do study in Vancouver.? [KF]: UBC. [BK]: UBC. Okay, great. Cool. I just

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had to be sure. Yeah, so. Obviously, if they're very different programs, as one is at the foundation level in undergrad and one of them is not. But how do you find, you know, the environment at UBC versus the environment at UTM in terms

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of I guess community and acceptance things like that. [AK]: Hmmm. This is a bit of a tricky one, because I feel like I was a lot more ingrained at UTM. I was, because I was involved in all those kind of extracurriculars and organizations and programs or

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programs. Um, I do think they're actually pretty similar environments as far as kind of the openness and getting to know everyone. I think the reason for that is because Master's programs are smaller as is, and UTM is a smaller campus. As far as campus size

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is concerned, UBC is obviously a lot more similar U of T, and it would be be kind of a lot easier to get lost in the grand scheme of things. But because your in a master's program, where there's you know, 25 people in a cohort you know everyone, you can't not know

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them, you can't not interact with them, even the people above you. You kind of start to know them, and it becomes one of those things where, like you really know everyone around you, which to me was very similar to being at UTM because of how involved

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I waas. And but I guess one of the differences is I don't have to put as much of an effort to be as ingrained in the community. It just kind of happens when you have that small of a sample. That's definitely a big one um otherwise, I think

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it's interesting. This isn't necessarily as much about campus environment as it is about knowing who you're working with. Um, when you go from being kind of in that last year of your undergrad where you're familiar with all your profs, you know you've done work with them.

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You're taking classes with them before it becomes kind of one of those environments where there's one expectations, but also to kind, kind of a comfort, pre established. And so I think going to grad school going to a different program where you don't know the people, you

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have to kind of work on rebuilding that. [BK]: No. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you. Um, and so back more specifically about UTM. In your experience at the school, Um, would you say that UTM prioritizes things like accessibility? [AK]: No. Not

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that UBC does either. I think as far as mental health concerned, universities in general need to work on being a lot more accessible. That's just kind of and go a general all around statement. I remember being at UTM and trying to get, like, mental health assistance

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and just not, and deciding it wasn't worth it because I was waiting, like, two months between appointments and it just kind of like by the time anything happened, I didn't remember what I wanted to talk about. Um, that did change a little bit last year with the

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pilot program. I don't know if they still have this, um, the in-department counselor in English and Drama. [BK]: They do. Yes. They hired somebody else again this year. Yes. Yeah. [AK]: Because I did find that really helpful because you actually got to, like, have quick access and know

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the person you're working with. But even then, I think because of the way the structure works, it's like, you know, five sessions and then we'll ship you out to someone else. It kind of prevents you from actually getting very deep into anything. A lot of the time

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What it was like at UTM was like emergency band aids rather than actually kind of working on any accessibility concerns as far as mental health is concerned. The rest I'm not fully equipped to comment on, if only because, um, place of privilege. I haven't really needed

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the rest, but I could definitely comment on that one as being much less than ideal. [BK]: Yes, leaving much to be desired. Unfortunately. And another question about, I guess, life at UTM more or less regarding academics. Um, did you ever take courses on campus that

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were particularly geared towards the queer community? [AK]: Yes. I took a queer lit course in my third year with Danny Wright. Great course. Outside of that, I took one women & gender studies course which isn't particularly geared toward the queer community but does have significant overlap. The queer lit

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one was the main one, although there at least not in the Department of English there aren't that many. [BK]: Yeah. Um And so what was your experience taking that course? Did you rather enjoy it? Would you recommend it was a good course? [AK]: I would definitely recommend it. Danny's

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a gem. The syllabus was nice. There was kind of a decent amount of variety ranging from slightly older text to much more contemporary ones ranging across a variety of, um, background identities. I guess it was well-rounded. I enjoyed and appreciated it. I would definitely

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recommend it. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I think it would be nice to somehow have more or more specialized one. Yes, but it was good to have the one. It was brand new at the time. It was the first year they ran it. [BK]: Yeah, so it's I'm actually, like, noticing some of

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our the just a little bit of research that we've done that he is specifically, Professor Wright is doing a lot of work or seems to be doing a lot of work to try and get more courses like that into the curriculum, which is great to see.

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And I'm speaking on curriculum again as well. Um, how much in your experience, once again, because, of course, um, you were a part of one program and not the entirety of the academics at UTM. But how much in your experience, how much queer content

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was included in the non-queer specific courses? [AK]: Oof! Hmmmm. This is a kind of a hard one, because my reputation at UTM was I was famous for being able to make literally anything queer, if I wanted. Yeah, I mean, I think the intro to critical

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theory had, like, a week or two about queer theory. Outside of that, pretty sure all the rest have just been like up to interpretation and finding ways to make it queer. Yeah, basically very, very lacking. I'm especially considering the great depth of things that are there to

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choose from. [BK]: Yeah, lot. Yeah, Yeah, I can I can only just agree. Yeah, in conclusion. Yes. So specifically regarding you mentioned that there were opportunities, I guess if you could find them and use them to your advantage Opportunities to integrate queer content into those courses. So did

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you feel in general that the English and Drama Department had an accepting culture in which, which you could feel that you could be yourself? [AK]: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I think so. I mean, I never had a hard time being very visibly and vocally queer in the department. I mean,

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they even let me write an entirely 20 page thesis on monsters and how queer they were like at some point, they were clearly very kind of open and supportive to those opportunities were you willing to find them for yourself? You just have to be willing to fight

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for them [indistinguishable due to technical glitch] true for any kind of new movement that you bring into an academic setting. You want to, you're gonna have to put in some of the work. By some of the work, you're gonna have to put it, come up with the syllabus and find

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it for them and be like, Okay. Here. [BK]: Yeah. Um great. And so, in general, moving beyond the English and Drama Department. Did you feel a sense of queer community at all on campus at UTM? [AK]: Yeah. Absolutely. Um, yeah. More or less, actually. In hindsight,

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yes. There definitely was one. I didn't necessarily get involved with it as much as I could have. I did, like I said occasionally kind of work with the OUT@UTM group. Yes, I did occasionally work with the OUT@UTM group. I know that there

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were at first, especially in my last year, for kind of more working on bridging and creating queer spaces. Probably I think the president of the UTMSU at the time was queer. So the two of us worked a lot together on those things. Um, and then there was always

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kind of like that freedom of be whatever. And then there will probably other people around you. In hindsight, I think very few of the friends I actually made at UTM were not queer, but that was more just due to chance and I think, like

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attracts like. It wasn't nearly as much to do with the infrastructure and that kind of thing. [BK]: Yeah, for sure. And so, in regards as, well, just in terms of trying to get, I guess, the sense of the community at UTM. So you mentioned that you were

00:15:11.720 - 00:15:27.600

many of the friends that you had at UTM did identify as queer. So was that something that....it's bit, a bit hard to phrase, but was that something that I guess was discussed and acknowledged within the group, or was that just almost like

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a common denominator between people? Did that? Do you? Did you find that that brought you closer to the people that you were close with? [AK]: I don't think it was like a main thing. It was a common denominator, but it's a strong one, you know, is

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a common denominator that often became a topic of discussion. Is the best way of phrasing it. [BK]: Yeah, that makes sense. [AK]: It depends on the people, right? Some people are a lot more vocal about their queerness than others. And because I tend to be, um,

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I tended to make conversations about it. So even though it was a common denominator, I think it's the kind of thing that people like to talk about. In circles where they feel comfortable doing so. [BK]: Yes. Great. Okay. And also, you did mention that you were involved with some

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of the queer based queer lead campus groups. Um, OUT@UTM for example. Um, but was there any reason in particular that you weren't more involved with those groups, or was it just, honestly, a sake of time? [AK]: It was the sake of time. I

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mean, I was president of the English and Drama Union. I was working with Pride Toronto. Like I had a full plate. I could only do so much. I would, you know, host the occasional office hour because I wanted to do something on campus. But I knew I

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couldn't get involved in like anything more strenuous than that. [BK]: Yeah, for sure. And another note. Were you aware of queer orientation at all when you were on campus? [AK]: Vaguely. I think by my third year. I became aware of it. Vaguely. [BK]: Mmmmhmmm. And so if you had

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known about that in first year say, do you think that would have been something that you would have attended? [AK]: Not in first year. But that's mostly just because of who I was as a person first year. Definitely second year. [BK]: Very good. Okay, Cool. Uh, do you ever

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call recall a time or any, uh, general instances on campus at UTM that you felt any sort of judgment or discrimination for your identity as queer? [AK]: Mm. Um, I don't know if it's a judgment, but I remember there was quite a bit

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of difficulty when I tried getting access to transition related health care. Um, just the staff not necessarily knowing what they were doing, making it a lot more difficult than it had to be. Um, despite my tending to advocate for myself. So one of the main things that

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I remember is I actually ended up having to stay on hormone blockers for a full two months, which is actually, starts to verge on dangerous at that point because you're just not getting any sort of like, chemical thing to boost your...to make your body function. So

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that was a really fun time. I was cold all the time. I was just like, super weak, and I remember after one month, I was like was like, all right. Like, um, is it time to start the estrogen now, because you know what, I need hormones working at

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a certain point otherwise, my body is just gonna stop functioning slowly. They were like, Yeah. I don't know. I feel more comfort, comfortable waiting, just in case. You know, anything happens to change. It was like, Okay, well, A, no. B, my body is literally slowly shutting down.

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You know, I need something to function on. So that was a bit of a rough time. I don't remember any active discrimination, I do remember kind of just moments of, like, lack of knowledge and information, I think, will be a better term. But there were also, like, amazing sources of support, so

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no. [BK]: Yeah, that makes sense. Um, also another specific question, I guess. Were you, were you ever familiar with the, um, the Sexual Orientation Office at UTM? [AK]: Yeah, I had a friend who worked there. [BK]: Very good. [AK]: Yeah, I knew it existed. I personally don't think I ever kind

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of relied on them or went to them, but I knew that they existed. And I would be, um, pretty eager to recommend them when needed to. [BK]: Good. That's, that's really good to hear. Yeah, so in general once again regarding UTM as a whole, what do

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you think could be improved within UTM's campuses for inclusion of queer identifiers. [AK]: Okay, I think honestly, like UTM my experience is a good job of welcoming queer identifiers, but they don't necessary kind of build that into it. You kind of have

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to take it upon yourself to kind of do the emotional labor like, hey, like, this is what I need. This is this. And I feel like there could be a lot of simple ways of just kind of slowly integrating it a bit more, you

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know, things as small as building it into your syllabus and your reading lists. Things as small as hiring queer staff. Involving kind of like, first off, in the content, or course creation, right? Like that kind of thing. Just slowly normalizing practices that help normalize

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and just kind of common, commonalize. I guess that's not a word, but I'm gonna make it one queer identifying folk and I mean, for example, the pronoun discussion always comes up sooner or later and people are like do we do them in classes, or do we not?

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One of the things I think I most noticed was they would happen in environments where I was present and not in environments where I wasn't. And so it would be one of those things where I was like, you can kind of get to point where you can tell that people are

00:21:24.080 - 00:21:38.260

doing this because they're reading you a certain way in some ways that actually does the opposite of what it's supposed to, because it's kind of like, yeah, because it's supposed to have a kind of like normalizing and getting everyone to kind of get into the habit.

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But if you're only doing that kind of like queer friendly practices, when somebody that's physically queer is in the room, you're actually doing the exact opposite of, like specifically calling attention to them and be like, Oh, you there. I can tell that you might have some

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kind of need. So let me ask you, and then also ask everyone else I guess but this is about you and I think that's kind of something that again boils down to the idea of building things in instead of making people advocate for themselves as much.

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Is building those things in umm. I do think UTM um, could use more kind of promotion of environments where you can go to find information because unless you actively become ingrained in it you're not going to know, and that could be very heavy and difficult. And also, I mean,

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not everyone gets to be involved in things for a variety of reasons, ranging from time to you know, financial reasons. They have to work, three jobs to [indistinguishable] can't necessarily explore that. And so they can't just dig in. You really need to be making those resources a

00:22:46.760 - 00:22:58.740

lot more just present and visible rather than vaguely available if you're willing to kind of if you're willing and able to look for them. [KF]: Yeah, like not doing them for the sake of having them but doing them because they need to be there. [BK]: Not like tucked

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away in the corner of an office. Yeah, okay. [KF]: Do you have any experience on the St. George or Scarborough campus, by any chance? [AK]: Um. I have a tiny bit of experience on the St. George campus by tiny, I did one conference there, and I ran for Board of

00:23:18.260 - 00:23:31.440

Governors in my third year. So I was [indistinguishable] so very, very, very little. But I also do you know some people from the St. George campus. [KF]: Because we're interested because we're studying this class is specifically for the Peel Region. Um, we want to know, like

00:23:31.440 - 00:23:47.360

the differences really between the campus culture at St. George compared to even UTM because I feel like being in Toronto, there are a lot more resources. There's a lot more people. It's just like a different environment, maybe. [AK]: But from my understanding, those resources are

00:23:47.360 - 00:24:04.660

again a matter of, like, you're gonna have to go outside to find them. You know, they're very present, but they're not involved in the campus. From what I've kind of understand from people talking to me, things like mental health are actually even worse out there

00:24:04.670 - 00:24:25.580

because there's more students moving. All of those things are like mental health resources, queer resources just like because in Toronto they exist. But you're probably not going to be getting them on campus. [KF]: That's fair. Yeah, not fair. But I understand. Yeah. Do you think your queer identity

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impacted your time at UTM at all? And why or why not? [AK]: Ooooh. I think I mean, yes, because like, I work on queer theory, so obviously, like, academically speaking, yes. Otherwise, I almost feel like my time at UTM impacted my identity

00:24:48.080 - 00:25:07.460

My comfort levels with them. Um, I think it gave me a lot of a chance to kind of work on self exploration and self realization, self actualizing, actualizing. And so, because especially the Department of English and Drama is kind of fairly open and progressive in those

00:25:07.460 - 00:25:23.390

ways and kind of very accessible to queer folk, it was a lot easier to kind of explore those aspects of myself. At the same time, I do think like my queerness definitely impacted my time there insofar as I spent a lot

00:25:23.390 - 00:25:40.380

of that time kind of working on building or advocating for myself, I think. [KF]: This question isn't even written down. I'm just curious because I'm on the topic of it. Do you think that you at all had an impact at UTM? [AK]: I don't know. It's

00:25:40.380 - 00:25:58.230

Because I was a lot more involved in kind of the academic side and the social side. I feel like anything I would have had it would have been more like within the Department of English and Drama and kind of like normalizing my presence kind

00:25:58.230 - 00:26:08.560

of educating people in my existence, which I think I did but I don't know if I would say that's an impact on UTM as a whole. Um, I do you think I had an impact on the Department of English and Drama, even though they kind

00:26:08.560 - 00:26:26.350

of were always very, are doing their best. It's just, I think, one of those things, especially when you are from one of those rarer kind of queer identities like being trans that you're gonna become the one person there you're gonna have to kind of

00:26:26.350 - 00:26:43.160

like, tell everyone what you need and kind of work from there and be like that person just gives all the answers. I mean, obviously when I was actually at UTM, I wasn't publicly out, although I was still very much like androgynous, non-conforming. So

00:26:43.160 - 00:26:55.720

there was still very much that kind of aspect there, Um, but on top of that, I'm still in contact with a lot of profs, so it's not like I'm not still to some level involved, but I think, yeah, any work, any impact that I would have

00:26:55.720 - 00:27:11.070

had to be more just based on have been advocating for myself and kind of presence then I think I've kind of gone out of my weight. [BK]: Yeah. Um, now, finally, do you have any questions for us or anything you'd like to finish the interview with?

00:27:11.640 - 00:27:28.190

[AK]: I guess I'm curious. Just, like, what got you both involved in this project and what you're kind of hoping to get out of it. [BK]: Yeah, well, this is a course at UTM called Topics in History or Queer Peel. And basically, with Dr Brown, we

00:27:28.190 - 00:27:46.410

are conducting oral history interviews with it for people within the queer community in Peel at UTM as a whole. So our group specifically is interviewing queer UTM alumni, uh, regarding their experience, um, at UTM at the time that they studied here, and

00:27:46.410 - 00:27:48.470

also, I guess, just in general.