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[Zahraa Syeda]: Okay. And we are recording. Hi Ali, how are you? [Ali Kazmi]: I'm good Zahraa, how are you? [ZS]: I'm doing great. I'm so happy that you could be on board. I'm very grateful and honored. Before we start, I wanted to ask you, are you good to answer the

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questions? Are you ready to go through this assignment of mine? [AK]: Yes. You have my full consent and I'm very excited. [ZS]: Excellent. I'm super excited as well. So Ali, for those, um now me being a Pakistani Canadian like yourself, I'm very well aware of who you

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are, all your achievements, everything. But just for those of us um for those who are watching you, who are unaware who probably aren't that in line with Pakistani media or otherwise, tell us a little bit about yourself, your full name, your pronouns and what you do. Tell

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us about your profession. [AK]: Well, I my full name is Ali Kazmi Uh huh. You know I am, I go by he/him. I guess that's, is that correct? Uh huh. I'm really glad actually. That that's that's the thing now, you know what, I'm happy that uh

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the world is becoming more all inclusive of people from um different sexual preferences, different ethnicities, different and you know, social media has made the world a global village in the great way. It's got its like most things it's got its, you know drawbacks, but I think it

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has a lot of positive feedback if useed the right way. Uh Yes, so my name is Ali Kazmi, I go by he/him and I'm originally from Pakistan. I've lived most of my life in Karachi in Pakistan and I'm an actor and a director. Okay

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uh Where to start? So I have been doing this a long long time which a lot of you may not know. Um I started my journey when I was two years old, in this profession. One and a half years old. Um My parents were both actors and

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directors and uh they are very well known in Pakistan. Rahat and Sahira Kazmi. And because of them that uh you know initially when mom, when she used to direct and they couldn't find a baby to put in the place so that would be me. Uh And

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then uh it just started from there I guess and then then I ended up being in Dhoop Kinare as well which which I know you love and I know a lot of people love Dhoop Kinare. I'm in that as well. I was seven years old.

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I played my father's flashback. I remember being really that feeling you know that you're born to do this and you feel alive whenever you're in that setting in that situation. And that's how I feel today. It has been over 30 years in this profession. And it still feels

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like the first day I remember when I was on set in um in Karachi um you know uh N. P. T. V. And I remember it was a scene with Arshad Mehmood Saab who is a fine actor and a big music composer for Pakistan for those

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who don't know. Um And it was directed by my mother, Sahira Kazmi and uh he was just making me feel comfortable because he had to come get me from the orphanage. That was the story of Dr. Ahmer, the character that he had no parents and

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he was um taken to a foster home by uh by this doctor. I remember getting me comfortable and things and and mom was very strict director and everybody was like Sahira's coming everybody come on guys wow let's shape up. So I remember mom came

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and I said she's like [indistinguishable] are you ready? Are you are you okay? You know the lines. You know the things? Like mom, [indistinguishable]. Which I don't know how I said that back then because you know it's the it's the innocence of that age

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I would never be able to say that to any director much less my mom. Oh Lord. Uh Yeah that's like uh that was yeah I said that to my mom and she's like okay and that happened to be a one take scene. [ZS]: Oh wow I've seen that scene.

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So I know how heavily emotional it is and there's so much like you see that child and you feel like is this is this child's real life. And it's just like oh my God it's so emotional one take wow. [AK]: Yeah my my sister my sister

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gave me that what she calls the orphan haircut. She did. I had like long silky hair and she like was like, oh, it let me do this. [ZS]: Wow, that is something that I'll always remember now whenever I watch Dhoop Kinare in that particular scene, wow.

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So it's very evident that, you know, your, your passion for your craft and your art, it roots back from years ago when you were just a child and you were like to your mom, I'm ready. And the thing is that your parents, for those who are

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watching um, Rahat Kazmi, Sahira Kazmi, they are the, I would say pioneers of Pakistani television. They are absolute icons. Um, not only their on screen performances, but behind the behind the camera as well. Your mother has directed some of the most iconic Pakistani plays and dramas.

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So obviously, um, I mean that just shows that growing up, you've probably, and from what you just told us, you've probably been around that life for quite a long time and you've sort of seen the way it works in Pakistan itself because a lot of these,

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most of these plays actually were set and shot within Pakistan and then um, what I wanted to ask you, Ali, is that you've transitioned a lot in your life in terms of when we look at your parents or your, you know, your parents were um living

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in Pakistan and the way they were living. They're like those typical, very handani and very cultural and very like well rooted Pakistanis living in Pakistan. And let me see you who's like this like incredible cool dude living in Toronto completely transition having like a completely different

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sort of um I mean I guess it's a difference of eras as well, but you've got a completely different sort of personality. You still you do have their charm, you do have their talent, but it's a different lens that we see you through. So tell me

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a little bit about when you transitioned into Canada and um did you study over here? What did you pursue here if you did when you reached here? Tell us a little bit about transitioning from Pakistan to here and what that was like. [AK]: Well, you know, as

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much as we may run from it or as much as we sort of may deny it, but we are a product of our parents in our environment and our peers and it's even if you don't want to, there's so many things by osmosis that you absorb

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and take in and I thank my parents gratefully. I thank them every day to be honest because they, I grew up in the 80s in Pakistan and I know um a lot of families could be close minded, a lot of families would not be as liberal or

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not be as open to allow you to express yourself or or to, you know, have that two way communication and I give my parents full credit for being so open and so honest and so open minded to the world that we grew up in a very

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tolerant, very uh sort of broadminded household which was great and that gave me the strength to um actually pursue my dreams and you know um I think in fact in my house it was do whatever you need to do whatever profession it maybe or whatever

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you love to do but do it well and work harder. Uh nothing will come easy and it's true my parents have never, ever ever to date sometimes painfully so, have never ever made any phone calls to get me into a play or or to help me

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out or nothing ever. They said, but have you chosen this, you must work hard and give it your best and do what you do what you will do. [ZS]: So with that I'm going to interrupt you here because I'd like to, I would have to mention that

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you know that speaks volumes because um it's a good thing and I'm pretty sure that even if they were the kind of parents who would like be those kind you know making calls and stuff, I don't think they would have had to do that much because

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you are super in your craft in itself. I mean you've done roles that are so different from you um from your own self and you've worked not only in Pakistan just recently, you also starred in Funny Boy and we're gonna get to that as well, but

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before that I do want to mention that you know, you in your craft yourself, you play such diverse roles. I mean there was a play that you, an iconic play that you did with Saba Qamar-- Baaghi. And we saw you in an avatar that was, I mean

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if someone were to watch a clip of that and would see you over here right now, they would not believe that you're the same person. So going back to the transitioning from Pakistan to here, I also want you to explain to us and let us know that although

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you've transitioned, how have you managed to keep that alive in you that you know, you're you're so observant and you keep an eye on the diverse culture of Pakistan that you're able to play the roles of people from all walks of life in the South Asian

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community? [AK]: So that's that's it I guess. So um like I said, my parents being um as open as they were and as supportive as they were. Um I spend time with all sorts of people, all sorts of people came to the house and artists and

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painters and people from all walks of life. Um and then I grew up also in a very oh because the values that they taught me and my sister were, you know, we don't judge anybody on the status or where they're from or how much money they

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have or or uh you know the color of the skin or whatever it is. It's literally do you enjoy spending time with this person, is it interesting? Are you gaining something from it? What are you getting back? You know those values that that have stayed with me

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and hopefully I'll pass them on to my children. And with that uh I was always very observant and I spend time with all sorts of people from all walks of life and uh you know sort of soaked it in. Um And I worked very hard on

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my craft in Pakistan. There were no film schools there unfortunately at the time. Uh huh. So you just learned by experience and and by you know sort of...I'm a huge film history buff. So I've watched cinema from all over the world since I

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was a kid and I loved it every minute of it. And I would read and read books and and uh you know my friends and everybody calls me they call me the film encyclopedia to date because that is how I've always been. And I would read

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and different techniques on acting and performance and film making and I kept that up while I was I'd be performing. And then slowly and steadily. Uh I stopped taking money from my parents when I was 18 I because I was already working and I was doing

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I was acting commercials and and T. V. And we had no film unfortunately at that time as well. This is the nineties You know uh the nineties in Pakistan were uh, TV was strong but there was no film at the time unfortunately. and because in the

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80s there was Zia-ul-Haq, a dictator that had staged a coup and taken over um rule of Pakistan. So there were...he sort of killed the film industry in that sense. He said it was too lewd and too too vulgar to you know for people to watch cinema

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and it's like you know really against what God says and all those things which is you know absolutely ridiculous when you think about it. But stranger things have happened. Uh but the TV fought fought through and and theater kind of fought its way through and they still existed

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but there was no film. Uh so as time went by I kept I I never wanted to uh it's kind of strange and it's kind of tough to...it's a blessing and a curse to be part of a household that's such a big household name, you know the Cosby

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family performance very well known. So it was tough everybody always wanted to compare me with my dad and they're like oh will you be chocolate hero always do this without look I want to be an actor that has variety and does all kinds of things and

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I want to be different from my parents so I want to be known for me. So that was always in the back of my head. But I did a lot of diverse characters even then and back then there were not many channels like they are now

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there was just a P. T. V. Back then and I remember even then trying to take all sorts of different kinds of roles as possible not just be the chocolate hero that everybody wanted me to be. Um So I tried to break stereotypes even then because

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I was you know uh hungry artistically and because parents had invited me with that look so like it was never about, they always taught me it's never about the fame, it's not about the money. That's a byproduct. You know, it may or may not happen. You may be

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a poor artist the rest of your life, but at least be a happy one, you know. [ZS]: That's beautiful. I love that. [AK]: And that is obviously very important to me is the art above everything else, you know. Um And so yeah so taking all those things, I'm

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sorry I gave you such a big... [ZS]: No, no by all means I'm having an incredible time hearing this. [AK]: There's a long speech there. But yeah that those things are important because that's what led me to um that artistic hunger. That is what led me to Canada

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is few things. One was that one was love. I I fell in love with my high school sweetheart and that's a whole other story, we'll get to that. But that. But yeah, that's, that's one of the reasons why um I moved here and a huge reason was

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when we were at the precipice, we're getting married And I was 24 um, that we could have easily stayed there. I made a name for myself and uh, you know, we both could have lived there happily. Um, but I said she was here. Um, you know, she

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went to McGill and then she was working here in Toronto We had the choice of uh, what to do. And I said, let's have an adventure and I will join, she was close to getting citizenship here and think back then in the year in the

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year 2007. And yeah. And that's it. So then and I wanted to join film school and I wanted, I had this thing of, I wanted to make a name for myself. And purely On 100% merit. make my country proud, make my parents proud

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and take a legacy forward somehow. You know, that was the goal. Um, yeah. And I wanted to have an adventure and see how it is. And also finally study film and what I've always wanted to do and you know, take it to the next level and

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hopefully be an international actor. And yeah, that's it. [ZS]: Yeah. So, um, I want to jump back to film school because that's always such an exciting. I feel like even though we're in, we're in 2021, um, the field of arts or like, you know, film school or anything of

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the sort, it's still something that's very exciting for some people because unfortunately it's not very common for people to actually study, formally study art and going to film school is always something that, you know, excites me a lot because I've always been that I've never been

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into it enough for me to pursue it directly, But I've always been a person who like, you know, um, with her sisters or with my, with my brother, like when we were kids, just putting on skits and like, you know, doing that little in in the

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mirror monologue thingy um, but you know, it's always been a very exciting concept and I want to talk to you about film school over here. So um, when you go to any institution in your own, you know, environment or in your own bubble or people are

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in an area where there are people who are more who, who you resonate with more in terms of culture or from where they belong. Um, of course we always, we mostly usually hit it off with people better when they belong from the same place as us.

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But for you, you were, you know, you just moved here, I believe is when you went to film school? [AK]: Absolutely. [ZS]: Is that correct? Yeah, so I wanted to ask you that because you did identify from, you know, you did identify as South Asian and you know,

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you believe yourself to be from the South Asian diaspora, so what I wanted to, so what I wanted to ask you is that because obviously, I mean you were very comfortable and aware of the film industry back home and the television industry back home, so when

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you moved here and you know, when you, when you formally started studying and when you were with people who, I'm sure belong to different, various backgrounds and different walks of life. So what differences did you see in terms of the way you were either taught or

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passed....some of like if someone would pass on wisdom to you or you know, if you just have a normal conversation regarding your craft, what differences did you see over here in comparison to back home? [AK]: Well, um so it was 2008 in March when

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I came here and in April is when I started uh Toronto Film School and it was a really fantastic experience man, um and I've recently been been honored by the school actually uh yeah, we'll talk about the later uh let's let's go step by step. So

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yeah, I joined film school in 2008 and in my class it was amazing, I had 13 people and almost all of them were from different nationalities in different countries, you know? Uh yeah, there was, there was a guy from, from Kenya, there was a girl from

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Japan and uh girl from Korea um there was like, I think literally I think they were just three people that were actually like you know um Caucasian Canadian and the rest were all diverse from all over the world and from from India and I was the only

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Pakistani, yes, there was Japan, Korea, Kenya, you know uh Morocco, Brazil, so it was really interesting um you know and they're all people that were there for the love of film you know. Um and I think the one thing that I had uh because because it

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was kind of strange as well, it was a bit of a give and take, I was probably also one of the, one of the oldest guys in the class really you know because I moved here, I was 25 already you know and uh but I still wanted

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to go to film school so. There is one of the buddies of mine, Joel who was Joel Richardson who is an amazing art director now for films and TV and him and I are probably the two oldest guys there and the thing and he was 30 and

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I was 25 and we both looked at each other like what are we doing, but uh but it was amazing because at least for me I know I know that I brought uh the leg up that I had was I had uh the experience of actually

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working in an industry and the practical knowledge, so that really helped. I, and after a while, I think it was something I wanted to do for so long, I was so heavily into it that I was, I I wanted to make the best of every minute

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that I had there. And um yeah, I scored high, scored high, I got three distinctions uh, one in film history, one in uh editing, and one in direction and uh um I think I had ah just an unearthly respect for the people that were teaching um

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and the people that um the part of that school, because one, I hadn't been to school in a couple of years and two, uh I was just amazed that, you know, these are people that are working professionals in this industry that I guarantee. One of

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my, my cinematography teachers was an Oscar winner, Kit Whitmore was his name. Um and I had amazing film history teachers and uh you know uh editing teachers and direction teachers and it was really, really amazing what and I think that I had so much respect for

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the craft and itself, that film school a lot of times and when you do uh this is a piece of advice that we give to anyone that wants to join the arts is when you do any kind of art school a lot of it is dependent

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on you. It is what you make of that experience and what you take from it and how invested are you because art is not a 9-5 type thing, it is something you have to be invested in and you have to literally ah you know from inviting

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that knowledge, using it and then putting into practical use even when you have to make the films in school as your projects and things and then write your thesis and all those things you have to be. So I think the people that succeeded from the university

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as well in general and then there that are actually working in the industry, it's a small number out of the class, not everybody uh you know went straight and took a lot of them are like, you know, a lot of times you're like, oh this is

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not for me, a lot of times you may realize that it's too tough, a lot of times you may realize this is too much work, I thought it's gonna be more glamorous than this uh but I was fully invested cause I knew what my goal was

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gonna be and then I did drama school after that uh classes with Lewis, Lewis Baumander, and uh after I got the film degree and it was really, really um an amazing, amazing experience and and the connections you make are again, it's your hustle

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is your uh sort of uh gumption and your uh sort of hard work that you put into it and you do get the reward, So I think that um after that, like I, you know, I worked with a lot of people from my film school and

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I also worked with a lot of the teachers as an assistant and things like that. Uh and I'd also promised myself I put a self exile on myself, I said that I will not, you have to burn the boats, sometimes you have to burn the boats

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to move forward And I told myself that I will not work for Pakistan for at least 5-6 years until I cement and build a foundation here as an actor and director. Uh that was that was probably the, that was the thing, I think because you know when

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you used to working and earning and contributing and that was tough because I was newly married and uh my wife was working and I wasn't and I was doing film school and I would tell myself that, Yeah, so I I actually did a lot of odd

00:24:15.330 - 00:24:28.950

jobs while putting myself through film school, so it was all a very, very new experience, very interesting for me, but that's what I wanted to do, I was like, I want to go all in, you know. [ZS]: You got that adventure that you hopped in for. [AK]: Yeah, not

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all of it was glamorous at all. Very, very rough at times. There were times when, you know, I did go to bed hungry and I was too uh you know, like I was a little like, maybe I'm really not a depressive person at all, I'm probably

00:24:48.780 - 00:25:06.970

people call me opti and like the most like optimists and like, I find the silver lining in everything. Yeah, like I'm like, you know, known for my positivity and my optimism, but that was like a time when I was like, I was doing well and everything, but um

00:25:06.980 - 00:25:23.790

I was doing odd jobs at the same time as well, I worked for Hollister, I uh you know, and and retailers sales associate, I did like um you know, to work in the production companies and in the same like studios that I work in now as an

00:25:23.790 - 00:25:43.650

actor, I've actually brought people coffee and printed scripts and mopped the floors and you know, uh then that old route as well, so hard work goes a long way and I remember, I think a really low point for me though was uh this uh there was a

00:25:43.650 - 00:25:58.070

company, like a pyramid scheme kind of thing, that used to put ads on Craigslist and Mandy, and that's how I would, I would, I was also trying to audition and do you know, things that do little little gigs here and there, just so I would stay fresh and keep

00:25:58.070 - 00:26:20.350

going. Uh and I was also applying to the production companies, you know, and I remember that is one company used to uh funny story because they...It's funny and sad, dark at the same time, it was uh they kind of used to fool actors into joining this infomercial

00:26:20.740 - 00:26:31.960

thing that they had. But you know, everybody would think oh you know they're paying you for training right? And there and it's like really trained actors to learn the script and blah blah blah blah blah and you go there that they would pay you for the

00:26:31.960 - 00:26:47.230

training and then they would tell you the real deal, which is that okay? Here's the product that you gotta sell, let's say it's like a lint remover or whatever for that month, right? And you gotta go different malls around the GTA and set up

00:26:47.230 - 00:27:00.970

a stall kind of thing, right? Different stores, different malls, Square One, Canadian Tire, whatever, what have you and you set up a stall and you have to make an announcement and then as many people come you got to give the whole speech that you have, the

00:27:00.970 - 00:27:16.710

script and then whatever people buy from you then 10% commission you get off that. Now, it was okay. It was an odd job at the time, I was also working at Hollister and doing like PA work at the studios and stuff and with a little

00:27:16.710 - 00:27:29.780

production companies here and there while I was in film school I kept telling myself is gonna be fine, you're going to film school, it's okay, it's okay man, you got power through power through, right? And this is from someone that's been working professionally in the industry

00:27:29.790 - 00:27:48.360

and in my first TV series when I was 13, and I never stopped, that's professionally, that's how like properly since like properly focused, that's how long I've been working. Uh not counting the ones that I was really young, like 13 onwards I never stopped like it was

00:27:49.040 - 00:28:05.580

commercials, TV, theater. So it was really weird for me. I was like, what am I doing with my life? I was like this what am I gonna do? I was I was really at a low point and then I remember I had to set up and not to

00:28:05.580 - 00:28:16.600

say good hard work is it's bad. It was, it's so character building and it really gets you. Mm but you gotta keep the hunger alive, you gotta keep fighting and you gotta be like, I know what my dream is, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go,

00:28:16.610 - 00:28:38.300

I'm gonna get it. I remember I was doing well at the sales, I was working hard there too. I was like, no, I'm gonna be the best salesman ever. But three weeks into the job, I was tired, I was, you know, just kind of down. I

00:28:38.310 - 00:28:58.480

went, just had to set up in Square One mall and I had two other Canadian guys, uh two white guys that with me and we would take shifts and we went and they were lovely guys, all actors by the way, like we're

00:28:58.480 - 00:29:12.500

like feeling kind of weirdly trapped and like you heard, are the managers give you the spiel and they're all we're actors too and you know, we're doing great and we're working all the time, which was a lie because they weren't really working actors. They were like,

00:29:12.510 - 00:29:25.520

just like, you know, book maybe one gig in like six years and we were like, wow, they can, they can do it. And so do we, so we know all this weird false sense of security. It was really a strange time. And then Square One when

00:29:25.520 - 00:29:43.700

I made the announcement, people talking behind the booth, because it was a lot of South Asians at Square One Mall as you know, because it's in the, in the heart of Mississauga right? So usually like let's say 30, 40 people would show up. About 150 plus people

00:29:43.700 - 00:30:07.630

showed up to the booth and they were like, Ali Kazmi? What is Ali Kazmi doing here? And I was like, oh my God, what's... Luckily luckily the cell phone cameras weren't that great back then because it was like 2008. Oh, so but people had like,

00:30:07.630 - 00:30:24.510

you know those like digi cams? They have them okay. And all the too sweet white dudes looking up to be like, what's going on, man? No, no, it's okay, don't worry it. I powered through the script. And then all these people taking pictures of me

00:30:24.510 - 00:30:35.230

and saying, oh my God, what are you doing? Are you shooting for something? And I think no, actually I'm in film school. I'm just like you're doing jobs just to contribute, you know, I don't want like my wife to be like, you know,

00:30:35.230 - 00:30:47.700

he's come here and you know like I want her to feel like at least even if it's 50 bucks I want to try to contribute, you know. Um and they were like, oh they gave me that look of pity and you know like, oh

00:30:47.700 - 00:31:04.670

sweet, he's delusional, he's gonna work here. Yeah right, yeah right, he's gonna work here. Uh so a lot of them were very gracious and took pictures and were very happy and took autographs and you know back then people actually took like, you know written autographs and stuff

00:31:04.670 - 00:31:18.930

and all that stuff and uh after that a lot of them also gave me business cards and saying, look, you know, my uncle runs a taxi service, drive a cab, it's okay and I think that's great and all, but I swear I have a dream, I'm finishing my film

00:31:18.930 - 00:31:32.790

school and then you'll see... [ZS]: You had a different motive. Not, I completely understand what you mean, like you're not bringing down or demeaning other professions or other odd jobs that people do, but I strongly and this is a lesson that honestly I'm taking away and I'm

00:31:32.790 - 00:31:45.170

sure whoever is watching it's going to take away is that when you have a certain vision or when you know where you want to reach, it's okay to detour a little bit, but you shouldn't, you shouldn't get off tracks. [AK]: You have to be, you

00:31:45.170 - 00:32:02.840

have to be to truly achieve that vision. Like I said, you have to burn the boats and you have to literally have tunnel vision and just undaunting in your pursuit. You have to go for it. Like you cannot just be like, oh, maybe I'll try this

00:32:02.840 - 00:32:15.790

along the way. Maybe I should just do marketing because that's where the money is. No, like I was like, no, you know, uh, not for any other reason, but that there's one thing I knew that I'm born to do with this is what I love

00:32:15.790 - 00:32:26.390

and this is what I will do. And then a kind of way though. So that incident stays with me. It's very, to date, I still get teary eyed and choked, but I think about it to be honest with you, I'm holding it back right now

00:32:26.400 - 00:32:45.930

because not for any other reason, but it's a fuel for me every day, promise you. Those those cards, that look of pity was like, all right. You wait and see buddy. [ZS]: You know sometimes I love that you said that because that's so true. Sometimes when we're, when we're on

00:32:45.930 - 00:33:02.810

a journey in life, we want to go somewhere. We meet people who maybe not directly or intentionally demotivated us. [AK]: And I swear to you they did not mean it badly. They were caring for their countryman. [ZS]: Yeah. But sometimes it just brings you down. [AK]: Yeah, they thought they....Absolutely. They to

00:33:02.810 - 00:33:12.580

be fair to them, they were lovely people, they were just trying to help their fellow countrymen. Like they had endured. A lot of people were you know and I will talk to this that you know, there were a lot of when people came here in the

00:33:12.590 - 00:33:28.770

early days like the seventies and eighties uh and we're of South Asian descent and another race is, well I feel and it still happens and its very sad, but it's a true fact is that a lot of people that may be qualified in their own country find the

00:33:28.770 - 00:33:43.440

equivalency here very hard to do and they come with families and things already, you know. Luckily my wife and I was still youngish you know at 25 and like we didn't have kids or anything yet you know and we had career goals and we wanted to

00:33:43.440 - 00:33:58.860

make it work and have that uh different kind of idea which a lot of the younger generation now has with people from uh all sorts of other countries that migrate here, you know, which is great, which is the way forward to be honest because I know

00:33:58.860 - 00:34:11.940

a lot of their parents sacrifice and even if they're doctors or engineers or whatever they sacrifice their own because they didn't want to waste time again with the equivalencies. They had to set up their families and and pay for the schooling and and the housing and

00:34:11.950 - 00:34:26.630

all those things, the important factors of life and they gave up their dreams just to become taxi drivers or open up a little, you know, restaurant or cafe or something. That wasn't their dream, but they did that just to put their kids and I've met so many

00:34:26.640 - 00:34:41.500

cab drivers when I first moved here and they recognize me and they'll be like we're also from Pakistan and so lovely to meet you and you know, I was a doctor there, but you know, moved here in early seventies and uh, now my kid though is in U

00:34:41.500 - 00:34:54.020

of T or he's, you know, in Ryerson and they're studying to be doctors or whatever. So I'm like, you know what, that's hard work that you get that kind of sacrifice. So salute to all the parents out there that give up so much to, you know,

00:34:54.020 - 00:35:08.620

put the kids to where they are today, but that was it. And I know that that's where these people's intentions were coming from. So I didn't take it negatively. In life, you have to take things with a pinch of salt and be humorous about it, but also

00:35:08.630 - 00:35:21.790

understand what people's intentions are, they weren't doing it in a mean spirited way. So I took it positively, you gotta take every experience positively and use it to fuel you and moving forward. Otherwise you will be negative and it's very easy in the arts to kind of go

00:35:21.790 - 00:35:33.480

to the sidelines and feel sorry for yourself, you know. I really didn't. I took that moment and I thank those people. I said, thank you. But I don't want to do real estate at this point. I don't want to drive a cab at this

00:35:33.480 - 00:35:50.720

point. Thank you. But just give me some time and you'll see, and that day when I was traveling with my, with my boards and my set up in the subway, just like a short film. Actually, I should make one about this. Because I was sitting in the rocking

00:35:50.720 - 00:36:07.590

motion of the train and I was just thinking to myself, like what am I doing, my life. And right then I went to that office and I threw the boards to the floor, probably gave them my best monologue to date, one of my best acting jobs and uh, I have trouble staying angry. I

00:36:07.590 - 00:36:22.390

don't, I don't stay angry with people. So I didn't want to yell at them. I just, I did say I was like, look, man, you guys are making fools out of other actors and you're ruining artists and making them given this false sense of security in this pyramid

00:36:22.390 - 00:36:40.250

scheme, don't do it, leave them alone and let people be let them choose their own destiny. [ZS]: How did they take that? [AK]: And they were like, but we didn't want you to .... they tried to return I said look, man, I'm sorry, but thank you. All the best to

00:36:40.250 - 00:36:55.020

you guys. I hope your acting careers go well, I hope your everything goes well. I hope your pyramid goes well. But it's not for me I'm out. And uh, or that was like, how it sounded to me in my head, maybe it was not at

00:36:55.020 - 00:37:11.280

cool, but it's probably like, listen guys, I'm really sorry, thank you. [ZS]: But hopefully it left an impact. [AK]: It was, it was pretty intense. Like I was pretty fired up that day. And yeah, so I told him, I said, look, thank you very much. But no, thank you.

00:37:11.290 - 00:37:30.900

And I left and I never went back and then I just applied to production companies and furiously auditioned and things like that. And then, uh, yeah. And then I finished film school finally. And that was great and graduated with honors and things. And uh, uh, and

00:37:30.900 - 00:37:50.800

then I worked in this little uh, production company for a little bit and then a theater play actually changed my life. [ZS]: And that was, that was here? [AK]: That was here. That was here. Oh yeah. Like I never like, this is like, this is all here.

00:37:50.810 - 00:38:04.440

[ZS]: Oh yes. You burned the boats. I remember. [AK]: I burned the boats man. Like I said, like I 5, 6 years. I said minimum. I would not be working. I had offers. I had all kinds of things. I said, no, thank you, No, thank you. And I think most

00:38:04.440 - 00:38:17.600

people thought I'd probably open up a restaurant here, like just like work in like, you know, sales and marketing or something like, you know, and give up the dream. I was like nope, you'll see, give a little bit of time. [ZS]: That's brilliant... [AK]: The amount of people I

00:38:17.600 - 00:38:33.710

had to say that to. [ZS]: I can...hearing your story, I can imagine that and when you were just um narrating your Square One story, I was just thinking that there has been many events that like Pakistani or South Asian based events that take place around Square

00:38:33.710 - 00:38:48.500

One and stuff like that and Uh like of course, because of the pandemic, unfortunately, we haven't seen much of it since 2019, I believe, but I have happened to been to events where you are there and you're just that you're just that burst of positive

00:38:48.500 - 00:39:01.970

energy and there's always people swarming around you not because you're a star or not because you're famous or not because you're well known for your craft. But I feel like the thing that pulls people towards you is of course, yes, you are a very well renowned

00:39:01.970 - 00:39:14.700

actor, everybody loves your work, all that stuff. But I feel like all of that comes secondary when you're, when it's your personality, when it's your personality that speaks for you and that's what the kind of person that you are, and I feel like your story of

00:39:14.700 - 00:39:30.600

your journey, sort of, you know, explains and shows why you are so positive even today because, you know, you've had that mindset throughout and honestly it's brilliant and so inspiring to hear everything that you've been through and to reach where you are right now. And um,

00:39:30.610 - 00:39:46.920

I wanted to ask you, Ali, because I wanted to move to Funny Boy now. So, Funny Boy is a feature film that you recently starred in which was also nominated for the Oscars. It was it was a huge, huge, you know, wave of happiness in the

00:39:46.920 - 00:40:02.070

Pakistani community because it was like, Ali Kazmi a Pakistani, starring in this film and here it is narrowed down to the Oscars. It was like, incredible and so exciting. So, I wanted to ask you, so, this film was basically based on a Sri Lankan novel and

00:40:02.080 - 00:40:17.010

you were not in your um you know, you're again, yet again, you are not in your fellow Pakistani community or in that space of yours. So, um, I wanted to talk a little bit about language over here. So, you know, we often hear and a lot

00:40:17.010 - 00:40:31.610

of people say this and a lot of people believe it, that languages bring people together or that language is the only, you know, we often hear from our elders that language, if you know, if you're not strong in your language, then you're not connected to your

00:40:31.610 - 00:40:45.920

culture. You know, we hear these kind of things and ideologies, I wanted to ask you that what do you think regarding language, be it working in a film like Funny Boy or be it when you were working here earlier, before you hopped into the Pakistani industry before

00:40:45.920 - 00:41:01.880

you hopped back into the Pakistani industry, that do you think that in order to maintain or hold your cultural identity in your case Pakistani identity, do you think it is vital and necessary and the only way to do that is through the means of language

00:41:01.890 - 00:41:20.730

or is it okay to not grasp onto your language but still be cultural or still be well cultured or connected to your culture? What is your take on this? [AK]: You know? Honestly. Um, again, because I have grown up in Pakistan and I've spent 25 years of

00:41:20.730 - 00:41:44.130

my life there, um, I, language is very important in my household. Um, you know, having um grown up speaking both Urdu and English fluently, that was important to my parents obviously, and uh, my father is a very literary person as well and teaches as well.

00:41:44.510 - 00:42:02.840

So that was of very high regard and I was, I was actually debate in Urdu and in English, back in the day for debate competitions and things like that. So, that was very important, given a big sort of high standing in my family. But if you

00:42:02.840 - 00:42:20.000

ask me personally though, um, as time goes by and I have two boys of my own, um, I want them to learn Urdu. Yes, that is a dream of mine. I would love that. But if you ask me does culture only lie in language.

00:42:20.000 - 00:42:38.700

No, I think that culture is way beyond that. I think it's um, it is the feeling of a collective, it is the feeling of uh, no matter where you are, there's a certain community that you will always be a part of. Uh, and yes, I do

00:42:38.700 - 00:42:53.200

believe, but I do believe in integration. I do believe in assimilation and I do believe that Canada is a lovely place for that. And I love the diversity and I love the welcoming nature of Canada and the fact that you do get woven into the fabric

00:42:53.200 - 00:43:06.320

here, which is beautiful and in such a welcoming feeling from the get go from the minute I landed here remember, I did not feel alien at all because you see people of so many different races and faces and places and it doesn't matter, you know,

00:43:07.300 - 00:43:27.550

how you pray, where you pray, whether you don't pray, uh, what, what color you are, black, brown, blue, you know, it doesn't matter. And that's the magic of Canada. And that's what I love. So culture to me is keeping your roots alive and listening to the

00:43:27.550 - 00:43:45.780

stories of your forefathers and honoring them and respecting them and whether it be wearing a hijab, whether it be um reading the Holy Book, whether it be, whether it's in English or Urdu or Arabic, you know, it doesn't matter. The point is that you do those

00:43:45.780 - 00:44:03.680

steps, those steps are important. It's not just the language. I love languages and they're important to me personally and uh you know, but in an overarching way, I think that in the future if my kids don't speak Urdu they will still, they've been to Pakistan

00:44:03.680 - 00:44:21.540

already. One is six and a half and one is two, they've already been multiple times, you know, they they love it there, uh they know everything about it, they, this should be proud of where their parents roots were from, where the grandparents roots were from and where

00:44:21.540 - 00:44:35.910

our culture stems from and the tehzeeb, the respect and the love that we have in our culture, that's always good to put forward because it's those values that are also part of you become part of your Canadian values, you know. Canada is made up of all

00:44:35.910 - 00:44:47.150

these different values of all these different people, that's why it is so wonderful and I think that that is the way forward, is that whether your kids or whether the next generation knows the language or not, you must teach them the ways of your culture, whether

00:44:47.150 - 00:45:09.020

it's with dance, whether it's with reading, whether it's with stories, whether it's with um sort of knowing what used to happen, what does happen or what the good and the bad, you know, like the stifling uh aspects of your country or or the freeing aspects of

00:45:09.020 - 00:45:26.320

the country or you know, um basically the history of where you're from because that is truly, will guide you to where you're going. I mean, let's say, I mean you grew up here most of your life, am I right? I'm gonna turn this around on you for

00:45:26.320 - 00:45:52.730

a second is and I know you and your sister and you both are really, really just such well rounded girls, Marcella and with you both, I feel that you both are very Canadian and very lovely and very uh all encompassing and tolerant and you know, but

00:45:52.740 - 00:46:07.760

yet you're also Muslim and Pakistani and very strong in your roots and I think your parents did a fabulous job with that. But but whether you spoke Urdu to me or not, like let's say like right now we're talking in English. But yet the fact that

00:46:07.760 - 00:46:23.640

you are still very aware of your culture and respect where your parents came from, where your roots are has nothing to do with whether we talk in English or Urdu in that sense. [ZS]: Yeah, true. Thank you. Thank you for your kind words, firstly, and that's very

00:46:23.640 - 00:46:38.140

well put because I absolutely agree. And the reason why I connected this to Funny Boy was because, be it Funny Boy or be it any other projects or work that you've done outside of Pakistan in spite of you not having that typical Pakistani avatar in

00:46:38.140 - 00:46:52.320

those projects or otherwise as well. You're still, you know that icon that okay, you know, Canadians like myself, Pakistani Canadians like myself know that okay, that's Ali Kazmi and he's a representative of Canada and Pakistan as well. So it's like, you know, you've got both

00:46:52.320 - 00:47:05.350

those strands and you've got both those ropes in your hand and you balance them perfectly even though you're not...You don't have to overtly prove it or show it through your language or anything of the sort like how you just said that, you know, I

00:47:05.350 - 00:47:18.300

think it's your mannerisms that can also help people get insight of your culture. So that's very well put and I I love how you put that. Now, as you mentioned, your two boys and I want to move to your, now we've we've looked into your professional

00:47:18.300 - 00:47:30.850

life and you know, we've got a little bit of an insight of that. [AK]: I do want to mention something about Funny Boy before we go is that it's such a um Funny Boy was a beautiful experience for me because for us uh with Deepa and

00:47:30.850 - 00:47:47.710

the whole cast and crew for us, it was putting forth a South Asian story and I want to talk about this because it just goes with what you were saying that it's it's about the all inclusivity of of being brown and and having that South Asian

00:47:48.280 - 00:48:07.000

value system or or um putting forth stories that would not or may not get to be heard. You know, because a lot of stories that get drowned because a lot of people are scared of telling them or um you know, stopped by the government

00:48:07.010 - 00:48:22.860

or or uh they may not have the means to put it out there. Uh which is why I give big credit to Shyam Selvadurai, the writer, writer for Funny Boy. Uh it's kind of a semi autobiographical thing actually, it's his story really what

00:48:22.860 - 00:48:39.640

he went through um you know, being uh a gay kid in the 70s in Sri Lanka back then when we like, what is that? That's just that's funny. You know, you must be a funny boy, you know, it's not... [ZS]: Hence the name. [AK]: Yeah, that's what it is, that it's

00:48:39.640 - 00:48:56.830

like, it's not about sexual. So sexual preference obviously was something that was uh you know, especially the subcontinent is still a very taboo topic, you know, unfortunately, and I have friends that I remember came out to us when we were teenagers before they would even tell

00:48:56.830 - 00:49:08.910

their own parents or their siblings. And that's kind of sad when you think about it, that is you can't have that kind of dialogue with your own family. You know, it can be opened that way. So, that's, so Funny Boy explores not only is it a

00:49:08.910 - 00:49:32.210

big step for the LGBTQ community, it is also um talks about cultural identity, It talks about uh you know, about the civil war and between the Tamil and Singhalese people and and then talks about family dynamics and how families react to all of these elements. And eventually they

00:49:32.210 - 00:49:48.120

have to move, become refugees in Canada and start over in a place they have no idea about. But yet there is hope for the son because he knows that he will at least be in a more tolerant society. And maybe I hoped to find love here

00:49:48.130 - 00:50:10.200

being of a different sexual preference, you know? So it covers all these things. And I know we got into a lot of uh... We, the film had a lot of a lot of positivity and a lot of love and uh you know, we we made it

00:50:10.200 - 00:50:23.490

to the 300 final films before the nominations and things like that. And it was Canada's pick for the Oscars and everything. That's a beautiful thing. We were trying to put forward a story. This story has existed for 25 years. That's when Shyam wrote the book.

00:50:24.160 - 00:50:42.990

[ZS]: Oh, wow. A long time ago. [AK]: Yeah. But people of his own country were afraid to make it and did not go ahead with it because like I said, it's still such a taboo topic. It's still very relevant to many uh countries in subcontinent today. Right.

00:50:44.460 - 00:51:06.330

What I found is that, yes, there was a lot of love for it as well. But we uncovered a lot of hatred for the fact that I wasn't Tamil playing a Tamil person, you know, and that was very sad to me because I understand completely that it

00:51:06.330 - 00:51:20.980

comes from the cultural identity and yes, you want your culture to play your culture. I understand that, you know, um but that being said, you know, you have to also understand why that happened, you know, and people went through the casting process. A lot of

00:51:20.980 - 00:51:35.470

people didn't want to involve themselves with a film with this kind of, this kind of theme, with the homosexuality, with the civil war, it was too heavy for a lot of local actors and things to be a part of this, that we don't want to step

00:51:35.470 - 00:51:53.280

in this direction. Hence I made it there uh and I will be always thankful to people for giving me the opportunity to play this character and be part of this journey because it was beautiful. People of Sri Lanka are lovely, such welcoming people and I've got

00:51:53.280 - 00:52:05.680

to be able to put the story out there. I think it's such a lovely and important story. I think more and more I would hope and pray that more and more South Asian stories like this---important, interesting ones get to the forefront and I hope that

00:52:06.450 - 00:52:21.970

people around the world, all my Tamil brothers and sisters and all all the people of Sri Lanka can, can actually see that this was a collective effort to actually put the stories of South Asia out there and for the world to see rather than um

00:52:22.750 - 00:52:41.680

you know. Let's let go of hatred and let's sort of the future is bright if we all stick together and and move forward and push each other. [ZS]: You've always known, and I'm very happy that you touched on this because that's very important for us, especially in

00:52:41.680 - 00:52:55.680

today's day and age to know that, you know, we've gotten a little and rightfully so, I mean looking at the conditions of what our world is right now, we're a little bit sensitive in terms of who's representing our kind on television. [AK]: You know which is great.

00:52:55.690 - 00:53:12.300

I think that identity politics, you know, I think people are much more aware and awake and the younger generation is...that is amazing, you know, like power to the women, power to diversity and be strong in your identity. I think that's amazing. I think that's a real positive

00:53:12.300 - 00:53:25.250

point of what the youth has brought actually to this, uh, the world today, especially, I think that a lot of it has to do with social media as well, where a lot of voices can be heard collectively. That's one of the good aspects of social

00:53:25.250 - 00:53:46.570

media and not uh, bullying and the uh, other aspects, unfortunately. But um, I feel that cancel culture is becoming an issue now, almost like, I think taking it to such a boiling point then, yes, express your views push forth. But I think that hatred is not

00:53:46.570 - 00:54:07.580

the right sentiment, you know, positivity, sticking together, uh, giving voice to the voiceless and, you know, helping each other, uh, you know, as diversity as, uh, whether it's on, on the issues of the world, let's say, you know, push forward, help each other out and bring

00:54:07.580 - 00:54:25.370

those issues to light, but hatred will get you nowhere. That's gonna just push people away. And that is something I find that cancel culture is sort of getting wrong. It's kind of just getting to this point where they're so quick to cancel something, but yet you

00:54:25.370 - 00:54:41.080

don't even get to hear the sides of the argument or actually have a have a proper discourse, have a proper discussion, you know? [ZS]: Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And that's I hope that, you know, this positivity that, you know, that lives in you, it spreads into

00:54:41.080 - 00:54:55.580

the world and that because you're obviously our artists do have that privilege where you have a bigger outreach to, you know, talk to people of the masses and you've always been that individual who has, you know, done his best to always put out the more positive

00:54:55.580 - 00:55:11.010

and lighter message. Thank you for that. I appreciate that. And um, and I want to pop into your personal life a little bit and your family, because through social media, through any of your other talks, it's very evident, and you always make it very clear that

00:55:11.010 - 00:55:26.500

you're fun, you're very professional, you're very successful. But all that aside, you're a family guy, you're a very, you're very family oriented person and um, you know, that warmth, that family warmth, you radiate that aura. So I wanted to talk about, um you did mention that

00:55:26.500 - 00:55:40.040

you have two sons. So you have two boys and I'm clinging onto something that you said a while back where when you were here, when you and your wife had moved here, your wife was working and you weren't. So I want to hold onto that a

00:55:40.040 - 00:55:52.860

little bit and putting all of this in perspective. And together, I want to talk a little bit about gender roles and how you being the South Asian man now, currently living in Canada, how you view these gender roles because of course, like you said, um, in

00:55:52.860 - 00:56:05.780

our culture, it's good to know the good and the bad. So I'm going to sort of focus on the downfall, improve it. That in our culture we often see even today, I mean things are changing drastically now thankfully, but we still see these because they're so

00:56:05.780 - 00:56:21.770

deeply embedded. We still see these issues attached to gender gaps. So, um I wanted to talk to you a little bit about in the way you're raising your son's um how do you manage to sort of, you know, disconnect them from or to not allow your

00:56:21.770 - 00:56:36.070

cultures and deeply embedded gender gap issue to overpower their upbringing. And I think the reason why I mentioned the fact that, you know, when when you had just mentioned that your wife was working and you're not that stood out to me in our conversation is because

00:56:36.070 - 00:56:50.640

not a lot of South Asian men would be comfortable or even confident too mention that or to acknowledge that. I'm not saying all a couple of them because this is an issue that persists in culture. So I wanted to talk to you a little bit about

00:56:50.640 - 00:57:08.840

that. Tell me what you think regarding um these gender role issues in our culture and how you're applying your new ideologies to raising your children right now. [AK]: I think um again, um a lot of it comes from our parents, from my wife and me both. I

00:57:08.840 - 00:57:28.030

will speak for us is uh that her parents were also a forward thinking, very liberal. Both of them worked uh and so did mine, you know, in our homes. Um it wasn't about who was bringing home more money, you know, it was literally about both

00:57:28.030 - 00:57:43.420

of us need to work, you know, and we both have passions and we both will follow them and I'm talking about both households, my wife's and mine uh which is why our value system is so similar and which is why we still get along is because

00:57:43.430 - 00:58:04.820

um that's the truth is that you must have those values embedded in you and carry them forward. Luckily we already had those. I mean, I'm glad our parents raised us a certain way, you know, uh to like she's super bright, she's CA/CFA. Uh

00:58:04.830 - 00:58:21.190

you know, um definitely the one with which I always say that she's the one with the real job, you know. Um and that's the truth, like it's like, I think our parents empowered us both in our own ways. Me, I come from a house full of strong

00:58:21.190 - 00:58:35.590

women, you know, my sister and my mom, my grandmother. Uh and there are very strong figures in my house as much as the men. It was never...In fact the men in my house are the ones that cooked and my, none of the women can cook. [ZS]: Amazing.

00:58:35.600 - 00:58:54.990

[AK]: My sister learned now with time by the way. Uh my mom, my grandmother never cooked. So in my house it was always like shared responsibility. It was shared working environment. Like it was, you know that if, yeah, if mom was editing a production, dad will be waking us

00:58:54.990 - 00:59:08.400

up and taking us to school and making the lunch, you know what I mean? It was okay. It was all good. There was never that thing of, oh, that's weird, why is dad doing this? That was never a thing. So we were raised with that. So for me now and vice

00:59:08.400 - 00:59:21.700

versa for my wife, it was the thing that, yeah, you are not lesser than a man or anything like that, but you're gonna do the best and you're going to be amazing in what you do and do whatever profession you want to and be great at it. So they

00:59:21.700 - 00:59:36.790

also pushed her and and you know, um like sent her to study abroad and sent her to McGill and you know, in one of the, one of the good universities in the world and she worked hard and worked her way up and now she's like, you know, at the

00:59:36.790 - 00:59:51.540

top of her game in the profession and like it was never It was always like almost as a given, you know, which is a beautiful thing. But I know it's not unfortunately, it is really not. And I see it changing slowly and steadily

00:59:51.540 - 01:00:09.310

with families in the subcontinent now and even and and here as well. Like they see families all over and I think it just comes from an unfortunate insecurity that the patriarchal system has uh sort of imbibed in the people and slowly shedding away which I'm really happy

01:00:09.310 - 01:00:25.690

about. But it's, there's no need for it. You know, especially in this day and age, you know, uh I think both couples should work. One for your own mental sanity and two, also because you know, um you want to give yourselves the best and you

01:00:25.690 - 01:00:40.640

want to give your kids the best. So I think both people are working, takes the pressure off each other and you have a happier marriage and you have have your partnership and you also contribute and your sort of goals are more cohesive rather than, you know.

01:00:41.610 - 01:00:55.290

Mhm. Both of you understand the working life and both of you understand what parenting in that life is like and plus then your income together is also way more and you live a better life. So these are all important factors that I think should be considered

01:00:55.290 - 01:01:08.930

rather than just saying, oh, you know, my wife, yeah, she's just a homemaker, she's not gonna work. She won't do anything like that. I mean, yes, if by choice, you want to be a homemaker that's a different story. You know, if I want to be a stay at

01:01:08.930 - 01:01:23.250

home dad by choice, sure. If my wife wants to be a homemaker by choice, absolutely, you know. But choice and that option is important for everyone. For every single person in the universe, you know, it's not about male or female and that's how I, what I

01:01:23.250 - 01:01:35.760

believe. So for my kids that this exact what I've told you is exactly how they're going to grow up is that, you know, uh, there are times when they want to play with dolls, they can play with dolls. They want to wear pink, they can wear pink.

01:01:35.760 - 01:01:49.950

I make them wear pink like, you know, it's, it's, they know both their parents work, they respect the fact that, you know, uh, and luckily my work is more flexible and I do get to spend a lot of time with them because I put in the hard

01:01:49.950 - 01:02:01.790

work to have that. And that's something I always wanted that because my parents went out of the way to do that, you know, we never felt like they weren't there for us. You know, and the same way, like I get to spend a lot of time

01:02:01.790 - 01:02:16.390

with them because my work schedule was like, really, really, really busy for a few months and then there's a bit of a gap, there's like, you know, two weeks, three weeks a month where I'm home writing, reading scripts, you know? So I am actually the first one

01:02:16.390 - 01:02:32.630

in the house that wakes up every day. Uh, get them ready for school and what not, and you know, virtual school these days, sadly, uh, you know, uh, make lunch for them, get them ready, I take them to the park, whatever, whatever have you like,

01:02:32.630 - 01:02:44.850

you know, I'll do it and then the weekend my wife and I are together. So, I mean, it's like, there's a give and take and I think that we need to understand that the old system is archaic and we don't need to have that. You can

01:02:44.850 - 01:03:03.170

still have respect, mutual respect and love in a relationship and be partners, rather than having one think that one is higher than the other. [ZS]: Right. Absolutely. [ZS]: That doesn't happen, you know, with income or, or anything like that. It comes from genuine mutual respect and

01:03:03.170 - 01:03:21.420

love. So that's. [ZS]: Wow. Okay, so, since you, that was very beautifully put and I want to hold onto another thing that you just mentioned is, um, you're very vocal about love about emotions and of course you're in a profession that's all emotions, I mean, sometimes you're portraying

01:03:21.420 - 01:03:33.690

and conveying emotions that you may not even be feeling on the inside because that's your scene, that's your character, you have to do it and that's your craft. So, I wanted to touch a little bit about, sorry, I wanted to touch a little bit on emotional

01:03:33.690 - 01:03:51.670

intelligence and along with that a taboo that is attached with the importance of mental health, because being from the South Asian diaspora of course, like we're constantly saying, and I'm grateful that we're able to say this, that things are changing, the narratives are changing, our parents,

01:03:51.670 - 01:04:05.470

our elderly are being more educated regarding mental health, their being more informed and I feel like social media and the online world has played a huge role in that information. [AK]: For the most part, we always grew up and a lot of people still uh in the subcontinent

01:04:05.470 - 01:04:20.610

still grow up with the thought of oh, there's no such thing as mental health, you're fine, you'll be okay. Just a little sad, get over it. [ZS]: Absolutely. So, that's what I wanted to ask you, that you um and I know for a fact,

01:04:20.620 - 01:04:35.100

I can say this before you even mentioned that this stems from your parents because the kind of work that they kind of, work that they've produced and um your mother has directed and your father has acted, they're very they've always been very emotionally intelligent roles and

01:04:35.100 - 01:04:47.740

projects and characters in spite of the fact that they were from a time like where mental health was probably not even a term that a lot of people were aware of. Um so I wanted to ask you Ali that mental health and the taboo attached to

01:04:47.740 - 01:05:03.090

it as well as emotional intelligence, especially in men is something that we're still sort of combating in the South Asian diaspora. So I wanted to ask you that because like it's very evident that you're raising your sons in a very emotionally intelligent manner. I wanted you

01:05:03.090 - 01:05:16.980

to talk a little bit about how you as a parent or you as a South Asian adult view this issue and how you think or how you can maybe if not suggest or recommend just sort of your outlook on how we can change this narrative and

01:05:16.980 - 01:05:37.840

how we can address this issue. [AK]: First of all I think let's all put it out there and we must all acknowledge that mental health issues exist and are very serious issues and especially with the year we've had the pandemic and the amount of people that

01:05:37.850 - 01:05:58.820

one has lost to loneliness and despair and that feeling of uh you know um depression which is a clinical condition, it's not something people are making up and you can fix with like you know a happy film or like you know and unfortunately I have actually

01:05:58.820 - 01:06:19.720

had a friend of mine many years ago uh end his life because of this very issue and we again had no idea that that was happening, you know because it seems everything seems fine from the outside. So please, so please. So that's the biggest thing

01:06:19.720 - 01:06:38.260

I would say, please talk to your loved ones, talk to your friends, not just for your own mental stability. You know, especially with the pandemic year. I think we all need to know that it's good to talk. You know, uh, let's say the first step, let's

01:06:38.260 - 01:06:52.690

say it's not even with the psychiatrist or shrink, you know, at least talk to your friends, talk to your family, be open and the first step is to accept that you have an issue or that you're feeling something. It's okay. I think a lot of times

01:06:52.690 - 01:07:08.160

what happens is, and especially as men in the South Asian diaspora or to be fair, even in like, uh, you know, I find that a lot in in uh, in the US as well in some parts here as well, is that a lot of times being

01:07:08.160 - 01:07:22.700

a man, just like, oh, I'm fine, come on, I'm okay. Just power through it, you know. And those things are imbibed in you and those are those are taught to you and those things, that's the way to be. You're a strong man. It's all right. You

01:07:22.700 - 01:07:35.460

know, just go fire a gun. It'll be all right, you know, but that's not the case at all, we being in touch with your emotions, it doesn't make you weak makes you stronger. And I think that's the issue that I think a lot of men and

01:07:35.460 - 01:07:54.130

women are suppressed by not reaching into your emotions, you know, it's like you tell girls to not be whiny and uh, don't bug your husband about this stuff like he'll leave you, you know, like this weird, weird, weird, strange kind of things. Um, and don't bug

01:07:54.130 - 01:08:11.630

your parents. You know, I saw this very interesting little animation the other day. I'm gonna just tell you about it. Is that, you know, uh, there was a kid who I think this lack of mental awareness, sex education, all these things, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm adding

01:08:11.630 - 01:08:28.590

this in too is because these are two major, I think the sort of sex education and, and, and mental health awareness are two things that are highly lacking, especially in the South Asian diaspora. And I think those are the things that lead to uh,

01:08:29.270 - 01:08:50.240

men becoming um, you know, these patriarchal monsters almost, you know, where it's because initially they would be like, they've been told by the parents. The animation was so interesting was like stop crying like a girl, you know, and then the kids like trying to control

01:08:50.240 - 01:09:08.290

themselves and then it's like, oh, don't watch this, you know, or uh, the kid wants to talk about, you know, what he learned in school about, about reproduction or whatever in science, and it is like, no, I don't want about [indistinguishable]. You know, I remember in school

01:09:09.670 - 01:09:26.600

we would like proper grown up human beings in the sense that even by the time I was like 16, 17, you know, our teachers would actually skip over the reproduction chapter in biology and I think that is ridiculous. I think it's something you have to learn.

01:09:27.070 - 01:09:43.950

So all these things, right. All these things lead to the man becoming more deviant about it. Oh wow. There's something like, you know, shady and attractive about this. [ZS]: It becomes like a mystery for them or rebellion. [AK]: So you have to do it, discovered it your

01:09:43.950 - 01:10:00.800

own way. And then it leads to, you know, um, a lot of people are watching porn and a lot of, and a lot of things spiral from that fact, that treating women as objects and then those men that were told that they were crying like a

01:10:00.800 - 01:10:15.800

girl eventually become misogynistic and and that leads to disastrous consequences. So the same way mental health awareness is the same in many ways. Is that it's such a taboo thing that, don't talk about it with your parents. No, no, no, no, no. What do you, what do

01:10:15.800 - 01:10:31.680

you mean you're sad? Go outside and play. You know. Or it's like don't talk about it with your friends. They're going to think you're weird. You know? That's a big thing, right? And you then are also like, oh no, maybe I should be tough. And

01:10:31.680 - 01:10:44.550

I think that the best thing we can do is to empower each other. And just say, look man, it's okay to talk, that's the first step. So I think that's one major thing the way we can do it. And I think now I'm so glad that

01:10:44.550 - 01:11:03.350

yes, there are many, many campaigns even in Pakistan and India and also uh countries of the subcontinent and of course in the western countries. It is becoming very apparent that people are ending their lives due to this and it's a serious thing and it's clinically, scientifically

01:11:03.350 - 01:11:23.850

proven that it is mental health is a huge issue world over. And I think if anything that this last year should have taught us is that don't shy away. Talk about it, you know, um and that coming into emotionally intelligent characters again, yes, that is something

01:11:23.850 - 01:11:36.920

that my parents have always fought for and that is something that I think any true artists would fight for. And I think if you take any of the of the good filmmakers and actors and artists around the world, they will tell you the same, is

01:11:36.920 - 01:11:50.440

that even without wanting to, it becomes part of who you are and becomes part of, if you are, if you love the art of things and you love storytelling, these are important things. After some time you realize these are all important things to say so

01:11:50.450 - 01:12:08.670

whereas whether it be Baaghi or Jackson Heights or or Funny Boy or or uh many of the things that I've done like, Baaghi was about honor killing about and about misogyny and about how this girl was killed by her own brother, you know, Qandeel Baloch

01:12:08.680 - 01:12:28.990

because she was different and because she didn't follow what the other girls were like in the village, you know? And we actually got laws changed uh about uh honor killing with the help of Shermeen and and uh you know our producers and the Pakistani government,

01:12:29.000 - 01:12:46.870

I applaud them for that, that they actually, you know, came forth [ZS]: That's commendable. [AK]: You know, and Jackson Heights was again about, you know, uh but how this woman is, you know, uh played beautifully by Aamina Sheikh and she is in Jackson Heights in New York, it has a

01:12:46.870 - 01:13:05.120

small little salon and she's like single mom type thing because her husband [indistinguishable] husband is in jail, which is me. Uh yeah, she's trying to live her life and again, like yeah, instead of supporting her, I'm trying to bring her down, you know, like that's

01:13:05.130 - 01:13:20.530

that's what it was. And eventually she's...When, when the guy gets uh you know, hit by a car, he, she is the one that takes care of him. And then he finally realizes, oh my God, this is an amazing woman and all the messages behind that

01:13:20.530 - 01:13:39.120

as well are, you know, don't be a misogynous and like let let people be and sort of subliminally bringing you that emotional intelligence, you know, and and all these characters are very grey and they're not just villains. They're just real people like, yeah, not like, like, like

01:13:39.120 - 01:13:50.490

my character in Baaghi, let's say, you know, uh he was sleazy, he was a little, you know this, But, but that was, I played it not like a villain. Like I know a lot of people were like, oh my God, I love it. Like so great.

01:13:50.490 - 01:14:03.720

You know, what do you love about that? He's a bad boy. So I was like, no, that's not, that's the opposite of what I want. [ZS]: You're not supposed to like him. [AK]: But eventually that did happen that they were like, they understood, oh shit like, you know, he's this,

01:14:03.720 - 01:14:15.870

this guy beats his wife. He's not a good guy. He's not a good person. But you have to bring those complexities in the characters and have them fully layered and play them as such as well. I don't play them as one dimensional. Treat

01:14:15.870 - 01:14:31.430

them like a real person. I think that's what actually finding the emotional intelligence between between the lines is what's important. And I think that is what is, I will go as far to say is that is what is lacking uh by the big producers that make

01:14:31.430 - 01:14:44.270

the decisions here in the western world uh, for diversity. I think that is what is lacking is that they are not making fully fleshed out characters that can be real people. It's just a token tech guy or the token nerdy guy or the or the

01:14:44.270 - 01:15:03.930

funny guy or you know. We're all that and more and I think that that that is what is important to find that balance and I hope that slowly, steadily that it's changing in the western world as well and diversity is growing and in the

01:15:03.930 - 01:15:22.480

arts and uh you know, yeah, it's very, very, very, very, very important to have that like I think, yeah, that is one of the reasons why I actually wanted to work. It was always the plan, but that's why the reason why ah about six years ago

01:15:22.480 - 01:15:36.870

I started working back in Pakistan as well because I was missing. Once, I also wanted to go back triumphantly and say, hey now I'm trained, and this and that, now I am, I am, I have achieved certain milestones that I wanted to and be known for me.

01:15:37.340 - 01:15:53.630

And it's true after Jackson Heights and Baaghi and stuff, people...It's a weird thing but it's kind of a little, you know, a little torch for myself. [ZS]: Yeah for sure you created that image of your own craft on your own. [AK]: People knew me, the all the new

01:15:53.630 - 01:16:09.990

and you know instagram and all these things came about couple of years ago, uh didn't exist before. And the good part about that is the people that watched all the younger generational Jackson Heights and Baaghi, all these plays, now they knew who my parents were as

01:16:10.000 - 01:16:24.320

actors of yesteryear, but because they didn't make that connection also because I was coming from Canada, right and I have not been on screen, Pakistani screens, for 5, 6 years. That was really interesting to me because they took me as a new guy to like this

01:16:24.320 - 01:16:39.990

guy can't, this can't be his first play, no way, you know, and they were like wow and it became what I'm really thankful for is that it just became a thing that okay, Ali Kazmi is an intense actor on his own. And then I had like had

01:16:39.990 - 01:16:54.910

these people that, and I thank my fans every day for this is that they appreciate of course they love my parents but they appreciated me for me first and later on like a few years later when I put a picture with um my parents they are like no way,

01:16:54.920 - 01:17:11.340

that's the thing okay, you know because when we looked it up and stuff, you know a lot of people were shocked that this is the case and I think I'm glad that the recognition from my own craft came first after heading back home and I think

01:17:11.340 - 01:17:25.310

one of the reasons why I wanted to head back home as well was to choose characters with the emotional intelligence and have that leeway which slowly and trying to build up here and create my own content and also work with amazing people like Deepa and and

01:17:25.320 - 01:17:44.790

uh you know people like that like Sharmeen and Marie and you know that can showcase that uh and and put a light on, shed a light on society and shed a light on in an interesting way and in a fun way. Um and I think one of

01:17:44.790 - 01:17:59.320

the reasons why I wanted to go back and I hope that big corporations and then the producers here start to slowly and steadily see that we need like, you know the BIPOC movement that's happening right now, it's real and you have to be like, they have

01:17:59.320 - 01:18:14.460

to unlearn, you know, what they've also learned, uh, is that whole culture of uh you know, Yeah, yeah, we're just giving the brown guy a role or the Black guy a role, Asian role, or this one. Like they've got to get over that as well and realized that,

01:18:14.470 - 01:18:26.210

you know, now that's one of the reasons which I'm glad that I started working back home to find that emotional intelligence in all the characters cause I finally could choose and pick and choose of what to do and what not to do. Uh you know,

01:18:26.210 - 01:18:38.040

whereas a lot of times over here it's a big struggle for actors because you have to do whatever you auditioned for, and you get it or you don't and you just have to do it because otherwise there's no money or there's no way you can forward

01:18:38.520 - 01:18:57.500

your passion or your craft and I'm happy to say that now I'm in a position where hoping that I can change that for a lot of people and uh create content and also yeah make a difference where yeah, that's it's okay to be different color, different

01:18:57.510 - 01:19:19.310

culture. Um let's have a fully fleshed out characters that take the story forward and not just be a token casting choice. [ZS]: No, I, I absolutely love the points that you raise because these are so important in our society today and you know, you've given an insight of

01:19:19.320 - 01:19:35.670

a proper, you know, South Asian lens and over here as well. I mean I like the representative, uh, representation point that you rose. I really hope that that begins to flourish more. [AK]: I think slowly and steadily. [ZS]: It is yeah, fingers crossed, you know, it rises quicker and...

01:19:35.670 - 01:19:50.060

[AK]: I do want to say, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry Zahraa I did want to say, I just want to I just quickly thought of something, I wanted to say that, you know, I think that what's important is now in schools across um the subcontinent. I

01:19:50.060 - 01:20:09.520

know this is a crazy radical idea, but I think we need sexual education seminars and mental awareness seminars and mental awareness seminar is still kind of starting, but I think there should be a must in all schools because the earlier the kids learn about

01:20:09.520 - 01:20:29.520

it the better. Don't tell your kids that they're crying like a girl or or anything of that sort, you know, like just say okay, like, you know, and I just want to say that, you know one of the first few people that he tried

01:20:29.520 - 01:20:48.410

that was Mr. Rogers Neighborhood and I recently watched this lovely documentary about his life. Uh there's a movie and there's a documentary uh the movie's lovely played by Tom Hanks but there's a documentary about his life as well and that is beautiful because he did like

01:20:48.420 - 01:21:08.760

at a time when it was not cool to share a space or share a pool with a Black person or share lunch with a Black person, he shared lunch and made this Black police officer, African American police officer dip his feet in the same little wading pool that

01:21:08.760 - 01:21:21.240

he had in the backyard in Mr. Rogers Neighborhood and shared lunch together you know and teaching, love things at a young age to the kids and such a sweet way these are things that we need even on a smaller scale. But the kids let's say you

01:21:21.240 - 01:21:41.200

don't want to be out there about sexual education and spoil your kids, let's say like most Desi parents may imagine right? [ZS]: Unfortunately. Yeah. and I think that this is the way that they'll make smart choices and also have mental awareness and I know that Mr Rogers

01:21:41.210 - 01:21:52.730

I'm giving this example only because I watched that documentary and it hit me hard and I was like you're not thinking yeah like we tend to be very flippant with our children as well. Shut up, come on, don't don't be like this. Whereas their kids too and

01:21:52.730 - 01:22:06.600

they have feelings, man, they have a lot of feelings, you know, just wanna all you need to do, all you need to do is just be, hey, okay, okay, what's wrong? Let's stop. [ZS]: I think the takeaway from everything that you've mentioned about mental health and even

01:22:06.600 - 01:22:19.910

sex education is that we need to all be willing to listen, not only to speak up but to listen as well, and that's such a good way to put it because that's so necessary and I feel like especially in today's day and age where we're all

01:22:19.910 - 01:22:36.350

just locked up, we just all want a pair of ears to hear us out, you know? So, so thank you for touching on that so beautifully. Also, Ali, okay, so as you said yourself that a human being, a person is, they've got a billion layers, like

01:22:36.360 - 01:22:51.910

I know a billion is like a lot, but okay, maybe a million layers, but several layers in a human being. So on an ending note, I've managed to, and you've graciously helped me to unpeel a lot of shades of your personality? I wanted to tap

01:22:51.920 - 01:23:08.030

something, I wanted to tap into something that not a lot of us have heard from you or about you is um what do you, how do you view spirituality? Do you think spirituality is linked directly with religion or do you think it's the whole, it's an

01:23:08.030 - 01:23:28.940

ideology standing on its own, how do you view it? And would you consider yourself a religious or a spiritual person? [AK]: First of all, I consider myself to be a spiritual person. And I think that in a lot of ways, unfortunately, unfortunately as the world turns, organized

01:23:28.940 - 01:23:49.540

religion is kind of these days due to the clerics and I guess especially from my uh scarring experiences from them always in Pakistan. Um, I think that because the way that people, a lot of people are preaching it and making it so hard and fast and

01:23:49.550 - 01:24:08.080

it's becoming more divisive than unifying and that's the issue that I'm having with organized religion. Um, and yes, I do believe in spirituality. I do think that there's, I think in many ways, um, I think it's um I'm a big man of science as well, so

01:24:08.080 - 01:24:25.090

a lot of logic and a lot of reasoning goes, goes behind my everyday life, but I do think the spirituality keeps you humble and it's good to be answerable to someone bigger than yourself. I think that's, that's a, that's an interesting concept, but I do

01:24:25.090 - 01:24:45.250

think that I'm more of a Sufi follower than than anything else because I do think that religion should be very personal and it is also something that is uh, um, should be spiritually gratifying for you and peaceful and something that makes you into a better human

01:24:45.250 - 01:24:57.380

being rather than saying yes, I pray five times a day, but I'm a terrible person and I mean to my neighbour and I hate my kids and I beat up my wife, but I pray five times a day. So things like that, those things that what kind

01:24:57.380 - 01:25:13.910

of put me off organized religion, where I was like, you know, I think the original purpose of religions was to be a better person, you know, in many ways, right? Like that's why it was like five pray five times a day you'd be, It was like

01:25:13.910 - 01:25:28.230

the Edens back in the day, you know, the 10 Commandments were there for a reason that, OK you have these set of rules, you have to answer to a higher power, not to me, not to your leader, your of your clan, but actually to a power

01:25:28.230 - 01:25:51.610

greater than all of us, right? So whether Allah, God, Buddha--- whether they exist or bagwan does exist, doesn't exist. I do not know. But I think that idea keeps you humble and uh I think the whole purpose was to at least get people together and

01:25:51.610 - 01:26:08.280

and sort of become a community and follow these certain rules to get your life better be clean and be five times a day, you pray, you, you do wudu so that you can be clean and like you can be pure of thought and move forward and

01:26:08.280 - 01:26:20.280

that exists. There's certain things that it exists in all religions, I just don't like the idea, the idea is to be a better person, I just don't like the idea of divisive, the divisiveness and the wars have just put me off the idea that, oh, you're

01:26:20.280 - 01:26:39.170

Catholic, you're Muslim, you're Protestant, you're, you know, you're, you're Jewish, you're, you know, uh you're Buddhist, you're Hindu. It's ridiculous. I mean, the idea is to unify and to have peace. So I think that it's very personal to each their own. I am spiritual,

01:26:39.170 - 01:27:06.080

I do believe that uh you know, um how I put it is there was the big bang which still is letting the universe expand. It was such a loud force. Now, what was that initial spark that caused that planet to split. Even science does not

01:27:06.080 - 01:27:22.810

have an answer for that, so maybe there's a higher power that caused that. So, you know, and put everything in motion, right. So we'll all find out someday, I guess what was the real answer, but until then I would say that I think that...

01:27:23.380 - 01:27:41.160

It's not so much about the, the details of, of what one has to do, but it's in the totality of the spirituality is to be a better person. So I hope that we all can agree on that and and and move forward and just be better

01:27:41.160 - 01:27:55.730

to each other. That's really what I want. [ZS]: Very well put. I I agree with you on that to be a better person. That's beautiful. Okay, so now on an ending, I'm going to ask you two things. Now, you can choose which one to answer or you

01:27:55.730 - 01:28:07.570

can answer to both of them because this is something that I've always wanted to ask you because you're that you're very free spirited and you're very like, you know, just always like I always say a burst of energy. So I wanted to ask you if you

01:28:07.570 - 01:28:22.560

could write a handwritten letter and with very with a very nice like ink pen and cursive writing and that kind of thing, if you could write a nice little handwritten letter to your 20 year old self, what would that convey? Or you could pick to

01:28:22.560 - 01:28:47.610

tell me if you would write a letter to your 80 year old self, which of the two? You can pick one, tell me both, which would, which letter would convey what message? [AK]: Uh huh huh. To my 20 year old self I would say, keep

01:28:47.610 - 01:29:05.730

at it, it will happen. And I would also say, don't be stupid, make better choices. Because yeah, because yeah, I'm sure I made some very questionable choices in my twenties, but that's I guess that's what your twenties are for. But uh yeah, especially for those

01:29:05.730 - 01:29:34.830

couple of years there yeah, I've definitely made some very questionable choices. Uh But uh yeah, to my 80 year old self, I would say mm what would I say? I think I would say, hey want to run a marathon. [ZS]: Knowing you, I have a feeling

01:29:34.830 - 01:29:54.390

you might tell yourself, Yeah, let's do it. I think you'll be able to do that then as well. [AK]: I think truthfully I might say, I hope so, but I might say, um, I think I might say that have a look at your grandkids. Hopefully I'll have

01:29:54.390 - 01:30:16.170

by then have a look at your grandkids and reflect back on what you taught your kids. How'd that work out? [ZS]: Beautiful. Very nice. Well put, I like that. Well, Ali, this has been such an enlightening conversation and I'm sure everyone listening and myself as well. I've

01:30:16.170 - 01:30:29.870

learned tons and it's so nice to know that, you know, someone transitioning from a South Asian country or community, you know, moving into Canada, your experiences and how you know, it sort of gives you a double lens. So it's definitely a plus point to have, you know,

01:30:29.870 - 01:30:44.770

your life split in two parts of the world. So, um, thank you once again for giving us this time for doing this for the University of Toronto Mississauga. It means a whole ton a lot to me. And it was lovely speaking to. [AK]: It was, it was truly

01:30:44.770 - 01:31:04.280

truly my pleasure Zahraa and you are an amazing person and I wish you all the best and I hope that you get everything that you strive for. Uh, and and my closing note is one of my favorite quotes by Yeats is, the world is full of

01:31:04.290 - 01:31:24.000

magic things, patiently waiting for our senses to grow sharper. So it's something that I lived my life by because I was never much of a believer in fate or what's meant to be will be kind of thing. I have always followed my heart and my gut

01:31:24.000 - 01:31:51.980

and taking the leap. Um but I will say that if you are strong in belief and you work hard and unflinching in your pursuit, there's nothing you cannot do. Um and there's no magic that you cannot see. So be unflinching, be strong, own your power and

01:31:52.860 - 01:32:05.880

move forward. [ZS]: Beautiful. Very well put, I'm gonna end it right there so people can take away these beautiful words. Thank you. Once again, Ali and I hope all of you watching have taken in all the positivity that Ali had to offer for us. Thank you Ali.

01:32:05.880 - 01:32:07.580