00:00:00.740 - 00:00:24.820

[Arsalan Rizvi]: Okay, so the first question I have is would you please give me your full name? Uh if you're comfortable sharing it? [Tasneen Ahmed]: My name is Tasneen Shakeel Ahmed. [AR]: Okay, perfect. So could you provide some clarity on your identification if you feel comfortable sharing such as

00:00:24.820 - 00:00:51.550

your race, your gender, sexuality and or any disabilities? [TA]: I am woman of Pakistani descent. I'm married, I have five kids and I'm South Asian. Okay, did I miss anything? [AR]: No, that's perfect. Do you consider yourself a member of the South Asian diaspora here in Peel?

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[TA]: Yes, I do. [AR]: Okay. Do you find class could be a defining feature in how you move through the world? [TA]: Definitely. [AR]: How, so can you expand on that? [TA]: Um I was born in a certain class. That's why I could go to school and colleges that I went

00:01:17.380 - 00:01:36.420

to. I was born in a certain class. That's why I got the education that I could, I'm in at my age, I or in my times when I was young, I don't think many women were educated as I was. And then I would say that among

00:01:36.430 - 00:02:02.770

many of my um many of the families that I know of, I would be one of the first people who started working as well. So a full time career pursual is also something somehow related to class education background. Um so, and then to be able to

00:02:02.780 - 00:02:33.190

come to Canada, you need to have a certain criteria, isn't it? Not everybody qualifies. You know, the rigorous criteria, they want skilled, Yeah, skill class and career. All the points, everything, English language facility. I mean things are somehow definitely class based, they wouldn't

00:02:33.190 - 00:02:55.920

want, they wouldn't want to bring um a person from a certain class who would not be able to navigate through the Canadian system and all that. So one class is always important, I would say. [AR]: Perfect. That was a really good answer. Um So do you mind

00:02:56.200 - 00:03:18.790

saying what year you were born where and how old you are now? [TA]: I was born in 1959, in a small town in Pakistan. Um but then I lived and worked in some of the parts of the country as well, so currently, uh but right now I'm

00:03:18.790 - 00:03:50.600

60, I would say. [AR]: And what was your childhood like? Would you mind sharing what your parents did? [TA]: Um In what way did you mean that? [AR]: As in like what the jobs and [TA]: Oh okay, so my father was a full time professor and my mother was a

00:03:50.600 - 00:04:13.900

homemaker. But you can say that I would, despite her being a homemaker, I would say that she was one of those rare women who would want, I was the eldest child, so who would want her eldest child to be as educated as anybody in her surroundings,

00:04:13.900 - 00:04:35.920

you would say, whatever I could get and that's exactly what I did. So all of her daughters or all of my siblings, you're saying you can say are quite educated. [AR]: Okay, so that was a big emphasis on... [TA]: Education was a big emphasis and then other than

00:04:35.920 - 00:05:01.890

that, religion, moral values to a certain extent, you can say um cultural norms as well, but well, I would say that my father was quite a big influence on me in a way that he was not typical, a Muslim person who would just be following

00:05:01.890 - 00:05:23.460

the rituals, he followed it, you can say follow the spirit of religion as well. So um he taught us from the very childhood how to respect people, not because of the money, but because of their, you can say dogma or because of their uh good character.

00:05:23.470 - 00:05:48.260

Now he never would say nice things about people whose income was a bit suspect or something. Uh so in a way you can say that he gave us the moral values that would uh perhaps I would say, yeah, uh not very common to find in people.

00:05:48.740 - 00:06:12.610

So not just you can say rituals of prayers and fasting and all that, but in realizing life as well, he was a oh, practicing Muslim as a good human being, I would say to the point that um hmm well if I tell you that he has

00:06:12.610 - 00:06:31.330

done some remarkable work as well other than teaching when he passed away, I realized what a great man has passed away. [AR]: Okay, so like he taught you the wisdom of Islam more than the rituals [TA]: More than the rituals, yes, exactly, you can say. [AR]: How did that emphasis on

00:06:31.330 - 00:07:07.380

education and how did it affect your childhood, practically? [TA]: It was a positive experience and education was emphasized upon. And uh, both my parents would introduce good books, good literature to me and to my siblings. So um, uh, and again, I would say perhaps being the eldest,

00:07:07.380 - 00:07:28.070

I was the luckiest. So whenever uh, my father would give me a book or something, uh, perhaps I would, I was the only one who read it really. And then he used to discuss it with me, he used to talk about um, that literature. So, and

00:07:28.080 - 00:07:43.160

I mean again, when it comes to education, it's not just the formal education that went on in school, but at home as well, the kind of literature that he wanted us to be introduced to and then the conversations that he wanted to carry on with us.

00:07:43.640 - 00:08:05.390

Um, they were quite, I would say mature conversations, not many parents do that kind of conversations with their children. [AR]: Okay. So then that means I would assume that you're being the eldest. They kind of gave you that leeway... [TA]: Yes, definitely. And to kind of, yeah, not because

00:08:05.400 - 00:08:22.930

not because he did not give the same opportunity to other kids, but the others were, perhaps not as obedient as I was. I mean from among my siblings, I'm known to be an obedient child. So it's more because I was obedient. That's why he would say

00:08:22.940 - 00:08:40.180

read this and I would say, okay, I will read this. Yeah. To the point that when I went for my masters um admission, we had an interview and after my bachelor's and during, you know the summer vacation or the break that you have, he had given me

00:08:40.180 - 00:08:59.530

a couple of books and I had read them. Um, and some of them were classics in English literature. Uh, so when I went and I said, well they asked me, the members asked me questions and one of them asked me um, okay, what have you been

00:08:59.530 - 00:09:14.130

doing during this break? And I told them, okay, I read this book and I read that and I then uh, everyone laughed and they said then why are you joining us? Because you've read all of that literature already. So it's that kind of education that I

00:09:14.130 - 00:09:38.450

mean I would say I'm lucky that I got that kind of education. And again, you know when it comes to, it's not just English language and literature you would say. But mm hmm I'm not, I'm pretty sure you are aware of Maulana Maududi? [AR]: No, I'm not

00:09:39.140 - 00:10:08.230

[TA]: Rally? Maulana Abul A'la Maududi is a great scholar of Islam and he has written, you can say, an extensive and not uh, tafsir, how would you say tafsir. So you can say further explanation of uh the Holy Qur'an, it's called Tafhimu'l-Qur'an. So

00:10:08.230 - 00:10:30.630

that means understanding of the Qur'an and it's in seven volumes. And um, he after my bachelor's, this was also one of those books that he said, well this is the time that you should read it. And I did read it. So it's seven volumes and it's

00:10:30.630 - 00:10:52.960

quite a big book. And so it it's not only that that he introduced me to things that were um good for school life but for real life as well. So religion, literature in which there are family stories and all that. And he would discuss those with

00:10:52.960 - 00:11:09.280

us. Actually discussion. When it comes to, it would be almost like a family discussion. Everybody would participate in that discussion. But when it comes to reading, of course, I mean I was lucky that being an obedient child, I would read it. [AR]: Yeah. So with that much

00:11:09.280 - 00:11:34.950

knowledge just kind of drifting away. It's not part of the default question. But how did that much knowledge that you gained as a child? How did that affect your perception of Islam and your religion? [TA]: Uh, other than being a believer? Um, I would say, or having

00:11:35.340 - 00:11:59.210

been associated with a person who had great respect for the religion. Um and being under the influence of this scholar as well that I said just now Maududi, he's, I mean perhaps some people might think that he is a little bit uh controversial in many

00:11:59.210 - 00:12:21.230

ways, but when it comes to his scholarly work, I don't think anybody would ever challenge that position because most of the work that we now see is a result of his major work. Do you understand? So in modern times, I would say not in, so

00:12:21.240 - 00:12:38.840

not when it comes to Ibn Kathir and all those. No, not about those. I'm talking about some recent studies. So in the 20th century, if someone has done some remarkable work and based on him, so much rest of the work has been done. So, I mean, I

00:12:38.840 - 00:13:05.740

think that it is well not just a religion but a way of life. And that if we mm hmm follow Islam in true spirit. And if we are able to, you can say implement some of the rules in our lives perhaps uh um will be able

00:13:05.740 - 00:13:31.300

to solve a lot of problems in our lives. Uh like uh, you know, charity is quite common these days. I would say people talk about charity and but then, the zakat system that was laid out that has been laid out. You can say in

00:13:31.300 - 00:14:11.080

Islam. And if everybody would really give 2.5% of their savings uh, and contributed towards the society perhaps will not have uh as many people suffering because of lack of resources or means. Yeah, banking system for example. Um, the wow interest, the way interest exploits and the

00:14:11.080 - 00:14:43.950

banks exploit people and they become they are continuously rich and people get just shred of their benefit. Um, So if if we truly practice this implemented in our lives, perhaps lots of economic social problems will be solved. [AR]: Perfect. So I'm gonna just go back to the

00:14:43.950 - 00:15:09.460

default questions here. Uh what languages did you speak as a child? And what about the rest of your family? [TA]: Um I used to speak Urdu and though I studied English but home language was Urdu. [AR]: Okay. And how would you define your relationship with your immediate family?

00:15:10.040 - 00:15:43.940

Back when you were a child versus now. [TA]: I think it was always strong. Okay. I never had any conflicts. [AR]: That's good. Uh and can you recall any instances of injustice or discrimination happening around you during your childhood? [TA]: Of course um injustices because of again we

00:15:43.940 - 00:16:14.600

said social class, injustices because of political, you can say struggles. Um My father went through lots of struggles because of uh as I was talking to you about his life, he was a man of principles and because of principles. Sometimes you or anyone who was following

00:16:14.610 - 00:16:41.470

a certain principle comes across people who are not happy with the decisions that you make. Um So uh huh other than the societal injustices that I saw on the way servants are treated in Pakistan, the way women are sometimes treated. I was lucky to be born

00:16:41.470 - 00:17:05.750

in a family where women were perhaps given sometimes um equal or more, uh rights. I remember my father telling, I have only one brother. He used to tell her, he used to tell my brother, don't think that because you're only one son, I'll give you any preferential

00:17:05.750 - 00:17:27.360

treatment. We have five sisters and one brother. So he would, he used to tell him all the time that you are no special just because you happen to be a boy. But then of course from my friends and the mates coming to our house, who would

00:17:27.370 - 00:17:58.180

tell us the stories of abuse at home. And uh I mean in life around us, of course there was lots of uh there were lots of injustices. Uh for example, from a modern perspective, I would say children did not get the same respect um from lots

00:17:58.180 - 00:18:32.440

of the elders because children were insignificant when it comes to their voice and all that. They would be snubbed. And uh, yeah, so, I mean, I have seen that kind of injustice. Uh and then, you know, uh um Bangladesh was a part of Pakistan first,

00:18:32.450 - 00:18:58.560

it was known as East Pakistan. And I was only, I would say 15 or 16 when this talk of all the place. And uh uh I did not realize at that time period. But later on, as I grew older, I came to realize that it was

00:18:59.240 - 00:19:26.580

uh because of the uh injustices done to the Bengali people. Later on, when I studied language and you can say language education and all that. I came to realize that um people from the West Pakistan had been unfair to the Bengali speaking people. And the biggest

00:19:26.580 - 00:19:46.890

riots that ever took place in the name of uh you can say on language on a language issue are those like uh those riots that took place in Bangladesh. I mean at that time it was known as West Pakistan but so um of course there has

00:19:46.890 - 00:20:17.150

been injustice all around. Okay, so I think you kind of touched upon this already but what was your parents' attitude towards your education and professional career? Yeah. Um they wanted me to be educated and to pursue a career and actually you know I again while I

00:20:17.150 - 00:20:46.940

was doing my masters, I entered into a competition exam in Pakistan for civil services and um I was one of the successful candidates um and though it was quite revolutionary from the family background that being the eldest and all that. I was allowed to do whatever

00:20:46.940 - 00:21:13.050

I wanted to. It was my own decision that I kind of wanted to pursue teaching and so I would say that not only that they encouraged us but they supported us as well all his daughters. Although all the children basically. [AR]: Okay. And so if married could

00:21:13.050 - 00:21:43.810

you speak a little about but your marriage was like and what was your role in the marriage process? [TA]: I am married to a distant relative. I knew him before marriage and uh my father asked actually both my parents asked for my consent and uh so

00:21:43.810 - 00:22:12.120

is this what you wanted to know whether it was? [AR]: Yeah. Okay. Uh and so can you recall any experiences of sexism racism. Classism or other discrimination at any point of your life you find particularly memorable? [TA]: Uh huh. I don't know whether I should talk about it

00:22:12.130 - 00:22:29.460

because I lived and worked in Saudi Arabia as well. So I mean I don't want it to be to become a political and because I've given open access and all that. So but I did come across, I would say racism in Saudi Arabia because you know

00:22:30.040 - 00:22:57.100

as a non-native Saudi working in Saudi Arabia, I did not have similar rights and it was clearly designated. I mean they have no qualms hiding it, nothing at all. Saudi, non-Saudi policies were different for Southeast and non Southeast my passport had to stay

00:22:57.160 - 00:23:19.100

in the office during the entire contract uh time period I would apply for um you can say I would request for my passport to be given to me so that I could travel but that would be after. I mean with the approval of the Dean and

00:23:19.100 - 00:23:42.520

all that. So I mean there was a whole process involved. It was not like having the freedom to travel or uh make some of the decisions that one can make elsewhere in the world. So yes there was some and uh sexism of course in in

00:23:42.520 - 00:24:11.810

Pakistan, it's an everyday reality. Um Men uh ogling uh Well you can say um despite being a Muslim country, you would say people approaching you in a very indecent manner. That is a norm of girl's life, especially a woman who is working independently, who's going places

00:24:11.810 - 00:24:39.630

who travels sometimes alone. So not very common, I would say perhaps because I was confident myself as well and such people look for the women who are a weak or who look a weak, but I have seen that. Of course. [AR]: Okay. And so next question, if

00:24:39.640 - 00:24:57.830

an immigrant, I understand that you immigrated from a South Asian country, could you share what your process and journey to Canada was like, [TA]: I did not immigrate from South Asian country. I was, I mean I was I was a Pakistani passport hold it. I was a

00:24:57.830 - 00:25:25.610

Pakistani citizen, but I lived and worked in Saudi Arabia for more than you can say 23, 24 years. Yeah, and I applied for um I was the principal applicant. I applied for the Canadian immigration from Saudi Arabia. And uh being a principal applicant meant that I had

00:25:25.610 - 00:25:52.670

supported my work uh experience and all mostly from Saudi Arabia because I worked in Pakistan for only four years. So that was not perhaps, oh, very good enough as well. Um and other than that, I mean that was probably in early 80s. So that must have

00:25:52.680 - 00:26:14.400

been quite an old uh work experience. So I mean because I had lived and worked in Saudi Arabia for almost 23 years. So it was and then I had to go through all those steps language test and everything. [AR]: You think it was easier to come to

00:26:14.400 - 00:26:39.290

Canada because you were coming from Saudi Arabia versus if you were coming from Pakistan? [TA]: I, I think, uh, it may have been easier, but I'm not sure. Uh, because uh, one of the steps in the application process was interviewed as well and being uh, non resident

00:26:39.290 - 00:26:52.470

Pakistani. So, I mean, there are two streams. If you're living in Pakistan, you apply in a different way. If you're living and working outside of Pakistan, you apply in a different way and there was a different at that time period, there was a different location as

00:26:52.470 - 00:27:11.680

well where you would send your application. So, I think, uh, as far as I remember, my application was sent to London and it was processed in London. And one of the important steps was an interview and we were ready for the interview of the whole family.

00:27:11.680 - 00:27:34.860

Although two of my children were at that time period during that process, they had moved to Pakistan and they were studying in Pakistan. But luckily for us, I would say we were exempted from the interview process and we were granted immigration only on our application. [AR]: Okay,

00:27:36.140 - 00:28:10.340

Right. Question. So, how does discrimination in Canada compare to whatever country you immigrated from? You said Saudi Arabia. And do you notice or find a noticeable difference? [TA]: Um, discrimination here is different from Saudi Arabia. I would say, I mean, when somebody tells you your non Saudi

00:28:10.610 - 00:28:36.920

and that you're going to be treated differently, then whether it hurts you or not, it doesn't hurt that much when you are told that you are equal citizens, that this is your country. But then in subtle ways you feel that you're being discriminated against. So where

00:28:36.920 - 00:28:53.660

when it's open and you're told OK, you are the enemy. If somebody tells me I'm the enemy, I will accept it. Okay, I'm the enemy. I'm the bad guy. Mhm. I will either if if I don't accept those terms and conditions, I would just leave the

00:28:53.660 - 00:29:18.670

country and there are people who leave the... who did not live and work in Saudi Arabia for a long time. So yes, I knew that if my Saudi colleague is teaching this number of hours, I am expected to teach a little more. Right? I knew

00:29:20.240 - 00:29:46.670

that. I mean the biggest um injustice I would say that I felt was that I was a recent, I mean I had finished my Masters for five years ago and I was one of those people who would have jumped at any opportunity to be able to

00:29:47.140 - 00:30:10.110

do, to study more, to get an M Phil or to go for a PhD or something like that. Right? And there was a point that I did think about leaving, my quitting my work and going to England and doing my doctoral studies and things like that.

00:30:10.110 - 00:30:37.010

I mean at an earlier stage in life, but then it never happened. Uh So my the university that I was attached with, I was working at had uh doctoral programs. My other colleagues, my Saudi colleagues could study, but I could not. Yeah. So in that sense,

00:30:37.020 - 00:31:05.230

yes, that injustice, I mean, if perhaps this would respond perhaps fit into your question earlier when you talked about injustice, right? So that would be unjust from you can see uh yeah, a perspective. But then because they told us from the very beginning that these are your

00:31:05.230 - 00:31:32.780

terms and conditions of work and I accepted it, I could not hold a grudge against it. But then in Canada, I would say that the discrimination is more subtle and it cuts deeper because apparently we are given the feeling that well it's all yours. But in

00:31:32.780 - 00:31:54.710

actual fact when I myself later on, not just worked and studied over here. So I did not feel the discrimination in the sense that somebody would yeah, treat me differently because I'm a colored woman or something like that. Again, perhaps because of the demeanor that I

00:31:54.710 - 00:32:29.720

carry that did not happen. But I noticed when it comes to, you know, uh stories from other people. I do hear about those stories. Uh oh once I was a member of a school council and I was elected to be the co-chair. Mhm. And I

00:32:29.720 - 00:32:53.520

mean, this is something that you would perhaps find quite funny that the principal, the principal asks me to come and hit the button and he showed me here, Miss Ahmed, press this button, he thought that I don't know how to use a laptop. Perhaps because I'm a

00:32:53.520 - 00:33:16.520

colored the woman and maybe I have picked up some language but I don't know why he didn't know that I was studying at U of T at that time period and I've done old and I was teaching ESL or link and all that. I mean so

00:33:16.530 - 00:33:42.730

there are subtle ways in which you feel the discrimination, it's not in your face, but it is there. And then when I being you can say on the research team for, for something else--home language heritage language education in Canada. And for my own

00:33:42.740 - 00:34:22.310

master's thesis that I wrote on um language choices of the Pakistani Canadians in Peel Region and specifically Peel region. Um uh the some of the things that I noticed were systematic, systemic, you can say systemic, right? So um if for example uh now in process while

00:34:22.310 - 00:34:45.500

I was studying for all of that I came to know about um the International Languages program right now. I remember when my daughter but I went to drop off my daughter at school the first day the teacher very sweetly told me that I need to continue

00:34:45.500 - 00:35:08.470

speaking to my daughter my home language because home language maintenance from her perspective was quite important. I said okay but let me you know if there is any program where I can enroll my daughter. She said, well it's on the Peel District School Board website. Now

00:35:08.470 - 00:35:27.420

when I go to the Peel District School Board, new to Canada, I don't know there is an international program and for international programs. Um there's a different website that I need to go to now. I'm talking about being an educated woman, being someone who knows how

00:35:27.420 - 00:35:51.290

to navigate through all those systems. I go to the website, I don't find much on it. And then I called the school and I find asked to talk to the secretary and I asked her about something and she currently tells me something and shuts off. So

00:35:51.300 - 00:36:07.600

not in a mood to talk for a long time. Not really interested in what I am talking about, what is international language program and things like that. I mean she said, well it's on our website. So you know the typical response, it's on our website. Yes,

00:36:07.600 - 00:36:27.050

it is only your website, but not everybody knows how to navigate through that system. It's not accessible. It's not accessible. And I don't know that I have to go to the evening program. It's a different website that I have to go to. Now I know. Yeah.

00:36:27.830 - 00:36:56.750

So it took me a little while to understand and then um again I tried to um um, to run, you can see a request, you could say requests, build school board to run classes in um, in our neighboring schools so that Children would be able to

00:36:57.630 - 00:37:18.430

attend those classes. Now there were two classes only, there was one in Brampton and there was one in um, an area which is quite far away from my house. As a newly immigrant immigrated family. It was not easy for us to go to that school because

00:37:18.430 - 00:37:38.070

that meant changing busses and all that. Right? And then, you know, on a weekend, there are so many other things as well happening. So just as in Toronto district school board there, after school classes, had there been after school classes in my neighborhood, somewhere at a

00:37:38.070 - 00:37:58.180

walking distance, perhaps my Children would help been able to study their home language, but they were unable to study it because it was made so difficult or it turned out to be so difficult, maybe didn't mean nobody made a conscious effort. But the system has been

00:37:58.190 - 00:38:28.220

evolved in such a way that it's not accessible for um, for parents for Children. And uh, then, uh, you know, again, there is this whole conversation around multilingualism and multiculturalism and all that. But when it comes to real practice, every child gets the message that English

00:38:28.220 - 00:38:56.970

is the dominant language and and those who make policies, I'm pretty sure they are more educated than I am. And they know the psychological implications of this kind of a knowledge on a child. They understand that if a child knows that his language does not fit

00:38:56.970 - 00:39:20.530

into this country. His culture does not, his or her culture does not fit into this country, then they would not like to identify with that culture or language because Children like to I mean with the limited knowledge that I have, I know that Children like to

00:39:21.620 - 00:39:54.340

blend into their environment, they don't want to stand out, they don't want attention, they don't want two come across awkward glances. So um you know, yes, on on paper in Saudi Arabia, I was a non Saudi, but when I went outside onto the street, I did

00:39:54.340 - 00:40:22.330

not feel very different despite the fact that we would dress differently ah despite the fact that we were colored. I did not feel much different from the people outside from the people there. But in Canada, of course it is visible. And it's, it's, so it's

00:40:22.330 - 00:40:43.030

a different kind of experience you can say. [RA]: And because of that kind of that push that, okay, we're very it's all about equality and diversity when you actually come here... [[TA]: And then you become a part of the system and then you come across that racism and

00:40:43.040 - 00:40:59.400

all of that. And then, I mean it's more difficult for you to accept it. [AR]: It's very subtle as if you need to slowly shift and change, especially for young Children to stay true to their own culture. It's very difficult here. [TA]: Of course. I mean, I remember

00:40:59.400 - 00:41:21.320

my daughter would tell me, I used to wear my salwar kameez in Saudi Arabia and I was the only one I would say only non Saudi who was wearing her. They were later on, some other people as well who who started wearing their ethnic costumes. Um

00:41:22.110 - 00:41:46.030

but then uh I mean it's funny that the Saudi women wear skirts and blouses, it's not a Saudi dress either. But still, I mean that's what their work clothes are and I have no objection to it, but they allowed me to wear my clothes. Uh here

00:41:47.210 - 00:42:06.020

I did wear my clothes once only when my class asked me to wear my costume because they thought that it was a special day and you can wear your clothes and so I would wear European clothes here. Right. So I used to take walks and once

00:42:06.600 - 00:42:27.150

um when I would go alone, in summer, even if I'm wearing my Pakistani clothes, I just go out and walk in my clothes. But once my daughter was, I was accompanying my daughter to her to, to a park in the neighborhood. She asked me to

00:42:27.150 - 00:42:49.450

change my clothes. And I said, why? She said, well, I don't want you to see that you are not Canadian. Mhm. And I would say, I told her, well, even if I change my clothes, I would not be Canadian in that sense of the

00:42:49.450 - 00:43:09.980

word ever. So why do you think? And then she would sometimes even tell me that's the early part, early time period when she talked about it And then I had to sit and talk with her. She, I always spoke to her in Urdu, so I continued

00:43:09.980 - 00:43:27.080

doing that. And while I was walking to the park I was speaking to her and she was responding to me in English. And she would tell me ammi you know such good English, why don't you speak English? And I told her well because that's our

00:43:27.080 - 00:43:43.590

home language, Urdu is our home language. So I'm speaking to you in my home language. What's wrong about that? No, but I don't want people to know that you are different. Mm hmm. So of course I'm then I stopped with her and talk to her

00:43:43.590 - 00:44:06.220

and I told her, do you think people would I understand you to be Canadian because you speak English and you wear jeans, don't they see your face? Don't they see that you look different. Then you can see if there is a definition of a Canadian face

00:44:06.790 - 00:44:31.810

per se. So and and and that's a that's when I am living in an area which is predominantly South Asian. Peel has the biggest a population of Urdu speaking people. The street that I live in has you can say 50% of the people from my own

00:44:32.190 - 00:44:55.430

uh ethnic background. So it's in a place where I am not a visible minority. I am a visible majority. I would say because you know when we came here we would hear the expression visible minority and all that. So one day, my son who was going

00:44:55.430 - 00:45:15.310

to uh secondary school, he was in grade 11 at that time period. So he said, when, why did they say a visible minority in my school, whites are a visible minority. Because at that time period there are, I mean at currently there you can say that

00:45:15.310 - 00:45:42.000

there are more people from Different linguistic and cultural backgrounds, racial backgrounds. But at that time period, I'm talking about almost 10, 12 years ago. Um majority of the people lived that lived in this area where South Asian. So we were a visible majority technically. But even

00:45:42.010 - 00:46:00.500

then my Children did not feel comfortable using the language. They did not feel comfortable in my, me going out in my Pakistani shalwar Kameez. [AR]: And I think that you would never at least for me, you would never go on your traditional clothing to a job interview,

00:46:01.480 - 00:46:20.570

right? [TA]: Never, never. I mean, yes, that's the first time when I bought a suit because I was um you know, I had to go for interviews and some other places and I would always wear a suit and all that. But then later on I made a

00:46:20.570 - 00:46:46.290

change a conscious change of course not in my you can say Pakistani shalwar kameez never, but I changed my dressing too, you can say to tunic and tights because perhaps there is more oh of the cultural change in Canada as well, Not because of us immigrants.

00:46:46.290 - 00:47:10.390

Maybe because of us immigrants? Maybe? Who knows? But then the uh huh pants and shirts slacks and top, that kind of culture has, uh, replaced with somehow it's not, you can say or perhaps because of feminism, perhaps that women don't like to dress like men. So

00:47:10.390 - 00:47:29.340

now perhaps there are more feminine tunics and tights are more feminine in that sense of the word. So skirts perhaps long skirts as well. Maxis, that kind of dress is a little more um, I would say more visible now. Or at least that's what I see

00:47:29.350 - 00:47:47.790

more now. But still, I mean, I would say 10, 15 years ago. No, that was a rare sight. So yes, I had to buy my three piece suit. I mean two-piece to go to interviews for interviews or for conferences and things like that. [AR]: Yeah, there

00:47:47.790 - 00:48:11.940

is a subtle pressure. You don't realize it, but then you slowly start to change your behavior. Uh, as you come to Canada. So, okay, let's move on. What area of the Peel Region do you live in or have lived in? [TA]: I live in Mississauga and I've

00:48:11.940 - 00:48:44.330

been living in the same area ever since we came. We did not move places. [AR]: Okay. And if you could define your experience here in Mississauga in one word, what would it be? [TA]: Living in Mississauga? I would say it's, I feel at home over here. Um, so

00:48:44.330 - 00:49:03.370

home, Yes, I feel, uh, okay, despite all the challenges. But then, well, I mean, where don't you have any of those challenges? You have challenges in Pakistan. You have a different set of challenges in Saudi Arabia, a different set of challenges in Canada. But it feels

00:49:03.370 - 00:49:22.660

like home. [RA]: Okay, perfect. So I'm gonna move on now to my questions just because every answer you give us so detailed, which is really good. So, okay, maybe I'm a bit No, no, that's actually it's perfect. You're the best you're the best interview candidate. I could've

00:49:22.660 - 00:49:41.600

asked for. [TA]: So lucky, lucky to hear again. [RA]: How has your religion shaped how you perceive your surroundings from the Peel, so from the micro, which is Peel, to the macro, which is the West in general. And there's a second part of the question. And how is your

00:49:41.600 - 00:50:07.460

surroundings from Peel to the West in general shape how you perceive your religion? [TA]: Uh, I don't think my perception of religion would change because of my surroundings more because I came to Canada as a mature woman. Yeah, I was in my 50s, late 40s, I would

00:50:07.460 - 00:50:30.640

say I was in my late 40s. I was a successful professional. I had, uh, you can say I have been granted the immigration based on my potential. So I'm in a confident person and I've said this multiple times. Perhaps maybe overconfident kind of a person would

00:50:30.640 - 00:50:56.620

not be influenced by what people say, especially when religion has been a part of my upbringing and uh so I still believe that when it comes to the west, Islam does not have any clash or when it comes to Western um life, there are so many

00:50:56.620 - 00:51:22.040

aspects that are very close to Islam, I would say and I don't know whether you have heard this or not, but it is often said and Pakistan and in many parts of the Muslim world that uh huh Islam is practiced by more of the people in

00:51:22.040 - 00:51:48.090

the west than and you know when it, when it comes to, sorry to say that I'm in West and East, although these are not um based on so any geographic uh yeah, areas, but to a certain extent, I mean that's how we have been made to

00:51:48.090 - 00:52:10.780

think about because most of the Muslim countries are in the east, so that way East and West and Islam and West and all that, but I see that lots of people who are Muslims who profess to be Muslims don't practice, I'm sorry to be judgmental, but

00:52:10.780 - 00:52:29.750

then the truth is that we have to accept lots of people don't practice Islam to its spirit. Islam is not about praying five times a day. Islam is not about having a beard. Islam is not about wearing a hijab. Islam is not in a dress. Islam is

00:52:29.750 - 00:52:59.530

not in a ritual. Islam is in our personal dealings, I mean the biggest change that Islam brought was how to have a society that is based on justice, equality and fairness. So to a certain extent I see that justice, fairness, equality in many Western cultures, in

00:52:59.530 - 00:53:28.930

many Western countries, even in Peel as well. And I I see lots of inequality, lots of unfairness, lots of injustice in many of the Muslim countries. So I don't think it is. Um you can see uh somebody's privilege or prerogative to imagine that because they are

00:53:28.930 - 00:53:53.920

Muslims, so they are good, honest, fair people as well. Mhm. And it is similarly, similarly, it's it would be wrong to say that because people, these people do not profess to be Muslims, they're bad people, but they are not, they they're immoral or they are unfair

00:53:53.950 - 00:54:22.220

or they are unjust. So it has nothing to do with the religion one professes to believe in. So you would come across lots of non Muslims were really good human beings and you would come across lots of Muslims who were, I mean who for

00:54:22.220 - 00:54:50.020

whom? The word human perhaps would not even be applicable. So, but then uh so I don't think I see any clash in terms of uh it's just that um you know, we've been brainwashed to think about believers and non believers and probably because of the limitations

00:54:50.020 - 00:55:15.050

and language, the way even Qur'an has been translated, we always talk about believers and non believers believers as are Muslims and non believers are non Muslims, but I personally think that belief is not something that is in words only belief is in your actions. So if

00:55:15.050 - 00:55:45.910

you truly believe in equality and fairness and justice and human values being kind to other people, then whatever religion you belong to, you will be that kind of person. So I don't know, lots of people think that uh it's a different kind of interpretation, but...

00:55:45.910 - 00:56:09.970

[RA]: So do you think that you came here as a mature woman? Do you think that experience was different for your Children in terms of juggling between religion and living in the west? [TA]: Um yes, uh earlier on, my Children don't talk about it, but now when I talk

00:56:09.970 - 00:56:32.230

about it, um my Children are open to me and they tell me that yes, they came across what they experienced a certain time period when they were exploring their religiosity in terms of Islam, you would say they had all those questions as well in their mind

00:56:32.470 - 00:56:53.210

and they were exploring answers to them and they were reading books that perhaps would not have been approved by any of the Muslim community if they saw them reading in terms of questioning religion. Not not any, it's not about porn or other kind of literature that

00:56:53.210 - 00:57:16.840

I'm talking about. It's about literature, it's literature about Islam. That is, I mean books written by non Muslims about Islam and things like that, that would question. So they did explore all of that and it's lucky that perhaps they had um I mean their grandfather as

00:57:16.840 - 00:57:41.050

their grandfather and me who was quite open and frank to them when it comes to all communications. Um perhaps they were comfortable talking about those issues and or perhaps because of that confidence that I've been talking about. I gave them the confidence from a young age.

00:57:41.730 - 00:58:01.620

I remember my youngest daughter, I mean she was seven when she came here. So she was in that impressionable age. And then Another son of mine, he was 13 when he came here. So mm soon after coming to Canada, he shows me a card, he takes out

00:58:01.620 - 00:58:22.570

a card from his pocket and he shows it to me from school. He got it from school. So people from the Children's Aid society might have approached young Children of the new immigrants and all that. They might have told him that if he comes across any

00:58:22.570 - 00:58:42.020

oppression, he could report to them. So uh again because I had open communication with him. So he came and he showed it to me and he was sort of, you know, um almost like showing it to me as if it's a challenge. Mhm. Oh if you

00:58:42.020 - 00:59:01.930

if you if I mean probably suggesting that he would report on me right? But then instead of being uh upset at it, I said, okay, we'll talk about it. And then when whenever you have some time we'll talk about it and then yeah, I got an

00:59:01.930 - 00:59:25.590

opportunity to talk to him and I said, well Just do one thing just as somebody has told you that because of oppression, you can report on your parents. Please go and research find out about those Children who have been taken away from their parents and who

00:59:25.590 - 00:59:50.130

are supported by the Children's aid society. See what are their educational and you can see what their condition actually is. What circumstances are they living in? Go check it out. Are the children who are living with the parents better off or the Children who

00:59:50.140 - 01:00:10.230

have been abandoned, well in a way or have been taken taken away, not abandoned because of course the parents did not abandon them. The Children were taken away. I said, go research them and then tell me whether you would take this card so serious as this

01:00:10.610 - 01:00:32.220

or not. And I'm not I'm not saying that there are Children who might not have come across abuse at home because of religion and because I'm not saying that, I'm not denying that. I mean, there are definitely some people who have mistreated their Children

01:00:32.220 - 01:00:56.880

because they wanted a certain norm to be followed in their household. But again, because despite all the cultural norms my father had given us girls lots of freedom. Mhm. Um and he had talked to us openly probably uh that's the culture that I had maintained in

01:00:56.880 - 01:01:21.930

my household as well. So my Children, oh even, I mean when it comes to quarreling with me, they can quarrel with me just like an equal, we can quarrel like siblings sometimes. So I mean it's not that false um respect kind of a relationship between me

01:01:21.930 - 01:01:44.000

and my Children. So again, not making any tall claims may be, there are still so many things that they are hiding from me despite, all the, you can say um openness, openness and everything, there's still maybe, but then that's their personal choice and everybody has and there

01:01:44.000 - 01:01:58.960

are so many things that I may not have shared with them. So it's not like there is no curtain between the two of us. But of course, I mean I know that they did come, they did question those and they acknowledge it to me. And although

01:01:58.960 - 01:02:14.880

I myself used to, you know, when I came here initially I did not teach my Children on my own, but then I realized I tried a few teachers, Arabic teachers and all that over here so that my Children would study Qur'an. But uh I was

01:02:14.880 - 01:02:36.230

a bit disappointed by the way they were teaching them. So I decided that I would teach them myself. So both my youngest Children, I taught them Qur'an myself and because I taught them Qur'an myself. I had a chance to talk to them about different uh issues

01:02:36.230 - 01:03:00.070

that would come up. And so I mean I would say again to have read translation at a young age is um again, I would say quite rare. So my Children were lucky that I not the older ones because the older ones did not study with me,

01:03:00.080 - 01:03:20.260

but the younger ones with uh studied with me. And because I always believed that it's not just a book that you need to read to get rewards. It's a book that you need to read so that you understand the principles of uh a good life and

01:03:20.270 - 01:03:43.490

again, you know, good and bad and all those are quite uh huh. Not easy terms to, I mean it's not easy to say what is good and what is bad in life but still um based upon the guidelines that are given in the Koran, we would

01:03:43.500 - 01:04:12.220

do, we would talk about certain issues. So for example when my young, my youngest daughter, when she started praying, there were certain discussions over here in Canada about a woman imam and all that and I asked her um actually my son, one of my sons would

01:04:12.990 - 01:04:34.860

encourage her to say iqamat or say you know that called for prayer when you are congregating inside the home. So sometimes we do in Ramadan more regularly. But the rest of the days as well at least Maghrib we like to pray together. So he would

01:04:34.870 - 01:05:02.600

ask her to say that the Iqamat. But then she said no, I'm not interested. And so in a way she had accepted that if this is to be done by a man fine, let her brother do it. So that kind of the situation in which perhaps

01:05:03.290 - 01:05:24.420

um the feeling that is a woman inferior which is why a man should be saying the Iqamat and all that issues like that did not come luckily again I would say I'm lucky in that sense but maybe there are some young girls who feel that

01:05:25.390 - 01:05:47.980

well if a man can say a moment why can't they? Mhm So oh I've been lucky in that sense again. Yeah, first week true. [RA]: So I think you answered the third question so I'm gonna skip that one. This could be just very general what aspects of

01:05:47.980 - 01:06:32.750

your life have been influenced by your religion the most? [TA]: Uh huh You know everything that we begin anything that we begin in when it comes to reading and actions the always talk about uh I mean we always begin it with Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem so Allah is, we're

01:06:32.750 - 01:06:57.460

saying that Allah is kind and merciful, right? So he's not kind once, he's merciful as well. So kind is different. Merciful is different and then forgiving as well. So mhm expressions like these are quite common to our culture because of Islam. Right, so in a way

01:06:57.470 - 01:07:21.200

I would say that yes there have been personal struggles in my family life as well where I felt injustices. Of course it has nothing to do with religion because we believe in, we are from the same religion and all that but still um to forgive and

01:07:21.200 - 01:07:48.820

move on mm of course we can forget but to forgive and move on and maintain the relationship. So for example one of the very important principles of religion that my father taught me was that we can never cut the relationships that are connected through the umbilical

01:07:48.820 - 01:08:17.690

cord. And although it's a phrase is the phrase that is used as Sila Rehmi. Rehmi means mother the womb of a mother right? So we are supposed to be kind and generous, forgiving for the people who are closely who who with whom we share

01:08:17.690 - 01:08:44.650

the blood ties, you can see right, the other ties of the wombs as the expression goes right. So I think that has been quite important in my life that even if I felt that somebody has been unfair wrong I would still maintain that relationship. Sometimes

01:08:44.650 - 01:09:01.790

it can be hard. Mhm sometimes it would be hard and so you know when it comes to my siblings it would be um and I told you already that I have a very strong relationship with them. So it's not because I'm talking about them, it's about

01:09:02.470 - 01:09:25.260

you know when you marry and when you are married into a typical South Asian family structure your in-laws treat you differently. That's a fact of life, right? So there, forgiving them and moving on and maintaining the relationships not because there is a pressure on

01:09:25.260 - 01:09:47.460

you. In Canada I'm independent. Yeah I'm not in Pakistan where I will have that societal pressure I'm away but I would still maintain that relationship. [AR]: Okay, so you would say that Islam is helped you keep the unity in your family and close relationships. [TA]: Exactly. And I

01:09:47.460 - 01:10:29.750

would say uh huh understand that we all can be wrong sometimes right. And because somebody has been raised in a certain culture and if they're acting in their lives based on that culture well they don't know any better. Mhm Yeah. Right. Yeah. And uh there's one

01:10:29.750 - 01:10:58.260

more thing that I learned a little late in life when my father was bedridden for almost two years, There were lots of health challenges that he faced and he used to say one thing Alhamdulillah ala kulli haal. So Alhamdulillah, in every condition in every circumstance that

01:10:58.260 - 01:11:32.630

I am in and I would say that um um coming from a person who is going through difficulty saying that he will thank God under all circumstances, there's also something very significant. So considering that family unit is important that family ties are important and that we

01:11:32.630 - 01:11:53.850

have to thank Allah despite all the challenges that we come across in life in life despite all the um yeah issues that we face is some, I mean, is quite important in my life and recently I would say when it comes to recently the corona

01:11:53.850 - 01:12:28.240

and all that because of the lockdown because of the uh huh feeling about the fragility of life so many people have gone and uh so in a pandemic like this uh again the concept that you never know how long you are here but as long as

01:12:28.240 - 01:12:49.960

you're here uh spend that day as your last day. This is also one of the concepts that is given in Islam as well that you spend every day of your life as if it's your last day. And so that's exactly what I do. I made a

01:12:49.960 - 01:13:08.800

plan. I mean I have sown my seeds for my summer garden. So I'm looking forward to the summer when I would be planting them. I'd be planting them outside and enjoying that with my granddaughter and all that. But still I am I mean I know that

01:13:08.810 - 01:13:30.170

okay. Mhm. This day I have to spend to the best of my ability make the best use of my time and uh do but whatever I can do from my family for people in my community for meaning any of the people that may be connected to

01:13:30.170 - 01:13:52.520

me through relationships or not for example through connections people who need uh maybe oh any of my help I can be of any use to any of them. I will try to make best use of my time. So I mean that's what I try to I

01:13:52.520 - 01:14:16.400

try to regulate my time through as I told you through my prayers. Not because I'm a very religious person in that sense of the word but because I just want to follow um, every step, mm sincerely sincerely. [AR]: So would you say that your father's mentality when

01:14:16.400 - 01:14:32.600

he was sick, which was, he was still happy grateful. Has that had a big impact on you today? Where no matter what you go through, who feel like, okay, it's going to be fine. [TA]: It's not only his sickness. I mean, I told you I was, I

01:14:32.600 - 01:15:05.200

just maybe mentioned to you slightly at one point that he had very challenges. He had, um, right. Uh, so, um, he had problems in his career and he came across those problems because of, uh, political, you can say interference. Um, but uh, I mean, so that's

01:15:05.200 - 01:15:27.770

not the only challenge. The health was not the only challenge. The other challenges as well. Financial challenge. And I remember, so, you know, when it comes to spending the day, I would say that from the morning prayer, the Fajr prayer to the Isha prayer apart from his

01:15:27.770 - 01:15:52.550

college, there was a time period when we had some financial difficulty where his college income was not enough for him to meet the expenses of his family. He had six children, all those expenses and all that. So he uh, would supplement his income by tutoring. So,

01:15:53.540 - 01:16:15.350

um, he had a student coming in after Fajr, then he would get dressed, go to the college, come back and then he would do his or her and whatever and then he would do have a student and then another student. So every, you can say um

01:16:16.030 - 01:16:43.140

at every hour, he would have a student coming in and he would teach until 10 pm and then he would say his Isha and go to sleep okay. So um okay again, I mean he was, you could say he was practicing it in his life, he

01:16:43.140 - 01:17:14.080

was showing it to us that it is practicable and not that I was that good all the time or that I followed all of that all the time. But um um in his will, oh he has bound his Children somehow to, uh to pray. So in

01:17:14.080 - 01:17:36.510

his will, he says that if you want to pray for me pray first and then pray for me. So even if I was not praying five times a day earlier on now I would. [RA]: Yeah and like you said your your your days are now regimented with

01:17:36.520 - 01:17:55.650

the prayers... [TA]: with the prayer right, and the rest of the work. Of course. I can, it's not that I would pray at the hour right away, but of course I would try to do it within that time period, sometimes joined the prayers as well possible if I'm

01:17:55.650 - 01:18:14.890

busy if I'm working Uh sometimes join 3, 4 prayers together, but of course I would try to pray them all. I mean that's an important, so that's a priority for me now. [RA]: Yeah, so it gives you some sense of grounding throughout your day. [TA]: Yes, yes, that's how I

01:18:14.890 - 01:18:35.720

schedule my day, I would say. [RA]: So next question, connecting to that overall, although I have a sense of how you're going to answer this. Has your religion impacted your life positively or negatively on a scale of 1 to 10? So one being very negative and 10

01:18:35.730 - 01:18:55.550

being very positive. [TA]: Very positive, you know, that already. [RA]: Yeah, I had a few. So let's just say 10. [TA]: Of course. Yeah. And again, I mean, I would continue saying that being in Canada living in Canada, it doesn't clash with any of them. Yeah, because yes, I mean, I'm

01:18:55.560 - 01:19:15.800

free to practice my religion here. I was free to practice my religion anywhere else as well, but I mean it's not, it's something personal. Yeah, it's something that I do in the privacy of my home. [RA]: Okay, so, question six was how is how

01:19:15.800 - 01:19:37.200

does religion shape your day to day life, practically, but you answered that with the prayers. I'm gonna Just skip that one then. So again, yeah, seven and 8 was connected to practicing the religion back home versus Canada? And you said it was didn't affect you in

01:19:37.200 - 01:20:03.410

any way. Do you think Canada has its own distinct culture. If so, can you list what you like or dislike about it? Mhm. [TA]: Um I told you already that I feel it to be my home. Um I mean, since I have lived in three cultures, I

01:20:03.410 - 01:20:17.870

would feel at home either in Pakistan or in Canada, I did not feel at home in in Saudi Arabia strange enough and I lived there and I made the best money there and spent the most, you can say most important years of my life there and

01:20:17.880 - 01:20:36.970

collected, you can say when it comes to work, experience and everything uh and got lots of respect. I still have my connections with my Saudi students. And so it's, but then when it comes to, when it comes to Canada, yes, there are, as I talked about,

01:20:36.970 - 01:21:00.710

there may be some negative things as well, but that's possible in empty part of the world. But I would say that Canada is oh uh huh. I was fairly in a fix whether to apply for immigration. Initially I was not, oh in favor of immigrating to

01:21:00.710 - 01:21:25.640

Canada. But then a time came when I myself decided that we need to move as a family to Canada and all that. So I would say I have the freedom to practice my religion. I can uh live the way I want to. I have social justice,

01:21:25.650 - 01:21:53.010

more of the social justice when it comes to um Canadian society. So it's a welfare state and it is a welfare state in true sense of the word. I appreciated being a Canadian citizen a lot at a certain time period when my sister in law

01:21:53.010 - 01:22:19.420

was not doing well in Pakistan. And strange enough at that time period, a couple of our, my family members were going through some kind of health issues. Members of the extended family and they were spending tons of money on their health care. But then they were

01:22:19.420 - 01:22:40.350

not satisfied. So because medical services are private in Pakistan. So, you know, when it comes to private, you never know whether they're doing it because it is in the wealth in the well be, it is good for the patient, it is in the in favor of

01:22:40.350 - 01:23:13.190

the patient or is more for his profit. Right? You never know. Okay. Since Canada is I mean health is uh um centralized. It's run by government you can say or healthcare system is um okay, quite a well established. At least I don't have that kind of

01:23:13.200 - 01:23:42.890

feeling over here. When I go to the hospital there can be you can say some uh uh huh misdiagnosis which is humanly possible but not because somebody is trying to make money on me. [RA]: Yeah, I get that. [TA]: Right. So I don't feel that when I'm seeing

01:23:42.900 - 01:24:02.110

a consultant or a physician or so in that sense. And then again, when it comes to the educational, I did criticize the international languages and all that access and all that. But still, I mean my Children overall, but generally, I mean, but when it comes to

01:24:02.120 - 01:24:30.150

overall education, Uh these are the two major expenses, for a family: school and health care. So in Pakistan these are the two major expenses for the families. These are quite costly. And there were times when me and my husband, both of us were not working,

01:24:30.590 - 01:24:51.430

but my Children were going to school and I had free health care available to me. So, there's a sense of security. Yes. What more could I ask for? Right. So, even if I did, uh, didn't have work, but I had that coverage. So that sense of

01:24:51.430 - 01:25:21.880

security, that sense of, um, again, the freedom to practice my religion. No, I I would say that, the, I mean, I'm talking about my own family, right? So, I may say that perhaps my Children did not come across any of those challenges when it comes to

01:25:21.880 - 01:25:45.600

identity issues. And when it comes to religion and all those, because I was there to talk to them. Uh, but then not all the Children have this kind of luxury, right? Not I'm not talking about the luxury of uh, an available parent as well. Sometimes

01:25:45.750 - 01:26:11.490

if a woman is working. Yeah. If I'm a husband and wife, both are working to make their ends meet, they cannot give that quality time Right? So, it is very much possible. Again, I'm not saying when it comes to uh, meeting people, other families and all that.

01:26:11.500 - 01:26:39.970

I do come across those challenges. I do hear those challenges. I hear from parents that the Children do not um, somehow listen to them obey them in that sense, because that kind of, you know, training is not given in schools that, I mean, you know, the

01:26:39.970 - 01:27:01.280

relationship is that of every individual acts in their own way, you will not respect a father simply because he happens to be a father. So for example, the way my daughter challenges some of uh the things that me that I or my husband says sometimes may

01:27:01.280 - 01:27:18.410

be acceptable in my family, but it may not be acceptable in another family. So it is very much possible that those children are going through some difficulties. So, I mean, the pressure from the school, the school is teaching you that you are a free person, you

01:27:18.410 - 01:27:42.230

can have, you can do whatever you want to, you can be the best you can be. But then there are some cultural uh taboos which would restrict those and we are all aware of those, that there are Children who are going through this. Um So it's a

01:27:42.230 - 01:28:11.550

fact of life that yes, I mean, and sometimes I do think uh that by coming to Canada I have given that freedom to my kids as well. That they can disobey me. Yeah. Mhm. No, because I told you from the very beginning that I've been a very

01:28:11.550 - 01:28:32.750

open and frank communicator with my Children. It was not an easy, it was not very difficult for me, but then it may be difficult for other families, right? So, yes, I mean, I'm not saying that such a clash is not possible. The clash of values is

01:28:32.750 - 01:29:08.190

definitely possible. So Children um thinking differently from their parents is not something so bad. But Children thinking that they can do whatever they want to. I mean every parent would want their Children to be limited by the restraints that Islam brings in life. I

01:29:08.190 - 01:29:30.050

wouldn't want my Children to explore their sexuality for example. But because I talked about about this openly to them. But there are parents who don't talk about this [RA]: and it builds up [TA]: And it builds up, right? Not just builds up but it can be a

01:29:30.060 - 01:30:02.230

ground for conflict. And you know whenever you have conflicts with your parents breaking off the tie, family unity and all that Yeah, that is um somehow you can say that makes people lonely and I understand that loneliness is is a major contributor to lots of

01:30:02.240 - 01:30:27.360

health issues these days. Physical as well as mental. So as I said it maybe maybe it's just societal but religious as well based on religion as well. I think that the family unit is very important. And yes, in Canada family unit is important is considered important.

01:30:27.370 - 01:30:51.020

It's given lots of importance I feel compared to the maybe compared to America or maybe some of the other Western countries but still um I mean this is something quite important. [RA]: Well honestly every answer you gave was so detailed that I didn't have to answer,

01:30:51.030 - 01:31:08.950

I didn't have to ask all my questions because you answered them by yourself. [TA]: What question? Oh so I answered my questions. Uh So I was going on all around. [RA]: It was all on topic, right? So I don't perfectly, kind of it just allowed for really easy interview. But I

01:31:08.950 - 01:31:31.290

think, I think we'll end it there because you answered pretty much everything. Is there anything you want to end it off on. [TA]: You know when it comes to I would say when it comes to learning about Canadian society, I've learned lots of learned, lots of

01:31:31.300 - 01:32:04.250

good things about uh what Islam preaches us to be. So respect for, respect for, you can say other human beings, respect for their time, respect for their Um contribution to the society and all that. And one good thing that I've learned is that um yeah,

01:32:06.750 - 01:32:27.490

I'm in here a child as I told you about, I was because I belong to a certain class. That's why I could get education and all that. I would say this will not happen in Canada because every child would get the chance to. Yes, there's family

01:32:27.490 - 01:32:56.080

life can somehow influence the way a child performs at school. But I think a child will not be hampered. It would not be an obstacle. Right? So I think in that sense, again I would opportunity opportunity equal opportunity at least is given government or the

01:32:56.080 - 01:33:21.050

state cannot provide a good domestic life. Yeah, cannot ensure to provide domestic good domestic life to a domestic life where a child is able to thrive and do well. But at least they can provide that in school. Yeah. And that they are doing quite well. I would

01:33:21.050 - 01:33:33.630

say so. Yeah. [RA]: Okay, perfect. Well, Tasneen auntie, that was that's the end of the, I'm going to end the recording now