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[Chashanjot Sidhu]: So Harleen, do I have your consent to start this interview for the South Asian Peel project? [Harleen Sawhney]: Yes, you do. [CS]: Okay, let's begin. So I will start up with some basic questions and if at any time you feel that you are uncomfortable answering some of

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these questions let me know and we can move on. Okay. First question, could you please provide me with your full name and your pronouns. [HS]: How I pronounce it? [CS]: Yeah, like your pronouns, like she her. [HS]: Oh. Harleen Sawhney and I'm a lady, so it's her.

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[CS]: And how do you see and position yourself in terms of religion and your background? [HS]: I'm a Sikh by faith and but I mean I did grow up in a Catholic atmosphere because that's the kind of school I went to, so I guess I'm pretty open to

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multi faith. I lived in the Middle East, so I'm well exposed to Islam as well. Yeah, my daughter is married to an Italian so you know it's kind of stems from there. We're pretty open but I do follow Sikhism as my faith. [CS]: Okay, and what does being

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a South Asian in Canada mean to you? [HS]: Well I migrated 20 years ago and it has been challenging in terms of work uh we were asked at the beginning what are the things I feel could have been better, I feel as a newcomer, the support system was

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lacking. A lot of people didn't recognize the skills that I brought with me uh the kind of exposure I had in my life, like I was educated in England, I worked in the Middle East and I've lived all over the world, but it wasn't given any

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kind of weightage. Yeah, I was again, back to, you have no Canadian experience, you know, just go and stand at the back of the line. I'm highly qualified hospitality professional, but it just didn't mean anything and it's frustrating because I came as a single

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parent to this country and uh, with nothing to fall back on. So it was very challenging to.... [CS]: Yeah. And I feel like that's a challenge for like many newcomers, especially like if you haven't been in that type of environment before. [HS]: Yeah. Like I said, we

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lived all over the world, but nothing prepared me for migrating and cutting up roots in this country, which I thought I wanted my daughter to have a stronger roots so that we're in one place And she was about 16 when we came. So it was a

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crucial age. It was not for me as a single parent, because that to find work right away and support us and it wasn't easy at all in the workforce at all? [CS]: Yeah, for sure, that's understandable. And what do you think your role is in the

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community and what do you feel like you have to contribute? [HS]: In what sense? [CS]: In the South, like in the South Asian Canadian community? [HS]: I'd say it's very varied. I am originally from India from Delhi. We, I don't relate to most of the South Asians here. They come

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from a very different background and even our intellectual levels are different. So I don't know if I could say that, I'm still finding my niche in my kind of people and I have met a group of like minded because I don't reflect the typical Sikh Punjabi

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diaspora here. Yeah, a few of us who are very different, we don't fall into that same bracket, We don't identify with that from back home. So their sensibilities are different from us. But that was another challenge that it couldn't even assimilate into that group because

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we were we were Indians and we were different, we were Punjabi, we were Sikh, but we were not from Punjab, you know, we came from different cities, etcetera. So the identification was even, it's like a subgroup if you please. Yeah, you know what I'm saying?

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[CS]: Yeah, different environment kind of growing up. [HS]: very different. Even even, I mean uh like my my job also led me to deal with a lot of South Asians here and it's great because we had a lot in common, but we're a lot different too and it's

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hard for an outside to understand that when I would say yeah, but you know, we are yes, yes, we belong to the same group, but our sensibilities are very different. It was hard to explain that. [CS]: Yeah, for sure, I understand that. [HS]: So I was often made

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to explain Khalistan and I said sorry, but it doesn't exist where I came from. So I cannot support that wave of thought and I don't know if you can understand that because I don't fit with those sensibilities at all. [CS]: Yeah. Just like growing up and where

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you were that atmosphere and environment was totally different. And do you mind telling me what year and where you were born? [HS]: In Delhi, 1960. [CS]: Sorry, 1960? [HS]: Yeah 1960. [CS]: Yeah. Okay. In Delhi. Yeah so definitely that's like a whole different environment from Punjab and

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more typical Punjabis would grow up. [HS]: Don't get me wrong I have grandparents in Punjab We went every year but again a whole environment was very different They were called scholars and teachers. And so we had a different environment. We didn't relate to the sensibilities that I saw here. So I again

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I didn't fit in there and then again I'm still an immigrant and trying to fit in here in the "mainstream" so I think that was another challenge in itself. Because all South Asians are the same. They're all brown. You know they all they all go to

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the Gurdwara. It's all yeah but it's not. [CS]: Yeah and you mentioned that you um immigrated from India. [HS]: I immigrated from the Middle East from Dubai. [CS]: Okay so when did you go to the Middle East from India? [HS]: I literally left India when I was 17. So I

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haven't been back. So I went to school in England and then by then my family had moved to the Middle East from Iran we moved to the UAE. And I got married and so on and so forth. And yeah. [CS]: What year did you

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like make the move to Canada? Would you remember? [HS]: Yup, 2001. [CS]: 2001. OK so 20 years now? What would you say your childhood was well like well growing up? [HS]: In what sense would you say? Not in what sense did you want to know? [CS]: Um Like in terms of just like

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your background, religion and if it was different like um growing up in the Middle East compared to how like Sikhism first they would be in India. [HS]: So growing up, the first 17 years was in Delhi. It was a Catholic school run by Irish nuns. So that

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was a great dichotomy because at home I was a Sikh and the minute I went to school I went to church, took the holy water before my exams. You know we did all that like good little Christian girls because there was a fear of God

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in us right in writing your exams. And across the street was one of the biggest gurdwaras and my grandmother often wondered why do you go to the church? Uh huh. But I was allowed by my parents it was open you know they don't go to the

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church. Okay first need to go to the gurdwara. So I think we grew up pretty open. Um And then growing up in England again it's open right? Yeah do whatever but I think as you know when we're away from our countries we tend to gravitate more

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towards our faith. So I look forward to going to the gurdwara in England. Yeah I love the gathering because then you miss some of that. [CS]: Yeah you're trying to keep like those traditions alive in a sense. [HS]: Not only that I think you just miss it more. Maybe if

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I were you I wouldn't so much. Oh you know it's nice to have your own thing that they dressed up and you know [CS]: For sure. And as a child um what languages did you speak growing up? And what about your family, what languages did they communicate

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in with you? [HS]: Yeah so at school it was all English. At home it was a mixture of Hindi and Punjabi. Because Delhi is predominantly Hindi, you learn Hindi in school. [CS]: Yeah, Hindi. And what region of Peel do you live in currently? Like, Mississauga...?

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Mississauga. Yeah so um yeah so as you mentioned you've lived in the Middle East so um somewhere out of the Peel Region, how would you say the South Asian diaspora was there compared to the Peel Region right now? [HS]: Um I think since just

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in my 20 years there's been a bigger influx from the Middle East because even within my circle of friends I mean from no one too many people for the same reason you know we were all we all came here for our kids. You know education,

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we had great jobs back there. We don't need to do all of those. We all decided we didn't want to send our kids by themselves so we wanted to uproot ourselves which in hindsight was maybe not the greatest thing to do. We could have sent our

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kids you know. But I think one thing led to another and whenever somebody asked me I said well you may want to come with your kids. You know it's not it may not be the wise thing to do to just leave them

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here. Yeah let's it's every family is different. I was a single parent so some families split up in the sense you know the moms came with the kids and the dad stayed behind. Yeah, it was a mixture But I did see a lot more people come here from that part of the world.

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[CS]: And what is one thing that you wish people knew more about the South Asian community? [HS]: For example when I would mention you know that's exactly what I told you. I grew up here and studied here and they just couldn't wrap their heads around. So

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what does she actually know instead of saying wow you know you've got a lot to give a lot of things. Oh what about this? And what about that? I wish somebody would have said you know that would be so interesting. So if you can tell us

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how did you navigate your way through the different countries you lived in and then you must come with a lot of experience. Which is what I would have expected like. I think I'm well all rounded, you know I've got experience, I've got a great education but I

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still felt nobody understood. They didn't even relate to the Middle East was all about bombing and people look at you weird and it's Oh, really? Okay. I don't know that. So the sensibilities, the the understanding about that region was very poor. Generally I remember going to a

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bank way back then and I had in those days we had things called traveler's checks and it was safer to travel like that because I came once and then I have to go back. I saw the entire bank was baffled. They've never seen a travelers check, believe

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you me this is not a story. Through the glass I could see the teller took it to the manager. The manager went to the senior manager and they were all perplexed and they looked at it, they turned it. I'm telling you this was the truth and then

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the came out and they said but where did you get them? Mhm. Well that's how I normally travel you know. And I mean it was so they were so terrified. They didn't know what it was, they wouldn't recognize it. I mean Canada in

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those days was light years behind. [CS]: Yeah. For sure. [HS]: I had a basic phone and they looked at my phone and said where did you get this from? So here I was I was coming to a first world country. But I just...Yeah. [CS]: I feel like

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there's like kind of a gap in the knowledge and understanding for sure. [HS]: And I think once, I mean I've lived here but I've kept that in the back of my mind and I make sure my daughter felt the same way that people tend to live in

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this little cocoon here. I live in Mississauga. Do you know Brampton? No, I don't go to Brampton. Do you think there's another store there? I don't know. And that's what I heard all the time. Yeah. So Dubai and England and India were way too complicated for

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them to understand. [CS]: Yeah. We're just like used to living in our own little shell, you know. [HS]: Just your little city, your street, your little, that's it. You don't know any more than that. And you don't want to know. You do not wish to even know. [CS]: Yeah. I feel

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like most people are like just comfortable like living in their little shell because they know everything about it. And they just feel safe in there, in a sense. [HS]: Safe and unadventurous, as well, you know. We were used to traveling. So it was very strange for me to

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ask somebody and they don't know anything about it. [CS]: Mm hmm. Yeah. That's pretty common. [HS]: Yeah. And I didn't want to end up like them. So I made a conscious effort. I would always keep my mind open. [CS]: Yeah, for sure. That's one of the best things you can

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do in today's state. How would you say Sikhism is different in Canada compared to India. [HS]: I think I touched on that a little bit. It depends which gurdwara you go to. And I remember for my sister's wedding, I couldn't find one which

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didn't have Khalistan all over it. And I said, I'm so sorry, I can't have pictures with that in the background. I cannot. I don't relate to it. It's not what I've ever seen in my life. Like that was gurdwara in England, in the Middle East

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we had a great gurdwara. Uh, for a brief time. Uh, I was in the Caribbean. I mean nowhere, nowhere have I seen that. I couldn't relate to what was predominant here. I still cannot. Yeah. And when I'm explaining something to a. non-South Asian, it's hard because

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you're predominantly seeing that. And there's very little of us. Like I said. The belief system even within the Sikhs unfortunately is very fragmented I feel and I don't often relate to that because they all don't speak the same language and that's often misleading.

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But um, how would you say like um, how do you feel the Peel Region could better accommodate um, like Sikhs or um South Asians. [HS]: But there's not much they can do. It's what the government is told. I mean it's not really their fault, right? There's probably less

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of us and we just keep quiet because you kind of go with the flow. You don't feel like going to the gurdwara then don't go. I'm not gonna make another faction out of it and say, okay, this one is for the other group. You know,

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then it's getting even worse if you do that. You know when you feel like going and if something bothers me, I just won't go. Often I've had this interaction with the highest and I feel there's no point in doing it because they're not going to change.

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[CS]: Yeah, for sure. [HS]: You know, it's like, I think once I went to get langar because my parents, they couldn't handle the stairs. No way. I mean there's only one gurdwara which probably has an elevator and there's no way they can climb all the way

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down. And I said, I'm just taking it upstairs for them. There's big discussion with me. You shouldn't be taking it upstairs and it's like. You know, they're in the 90s. What do you want me to do? So things like that, there's very little done about it, I

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feel. So you either make a big noise and get into trouble. And I have a big issue with them, with weddings and the way they... There's a whole thing out there with money and I had bad experiences there, like to get money out of us, when they

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shouldn't have, right? So I don't think the next generation is going to take this lying down. It's quiet and we say, okay, that's fine, keep the peace. My parents when they passed away and doing the bread and all, every time, it was always to do with

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money, you know, if my sister had paid, they tried to get it out of me, I mean it was just unpleasant. [CS]: Yeah, for sure. [HS]: And then it puts you off. Yeah, we still do it because you know, we always do our parents, so we had to do it.

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I don't see the next generation putting up with it. Like they won't give you a receipt. Things stupid things like that, not nice. [CS]: So um as you mentioned, you aren't like from Punjab. Do you feel like you were brought up with different expectations compared to

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a child that would have been like born and brought up in Punjab? [HS]: I'm not from Punjab, but are you saying I'm different from people born in Punjab? [CS]: So like I'm saying since you mentioned you were not born in Punjab, you were born in Delhi, right? So um

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growing up, do you feel like you had different um like something different was expected from you than it would be from like a child that was born and brought up in Punjab or would you say there was not much of a difference? [HS]: You know, I would

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say that it's just who we are as Sikhs. Um no matter where we're born, the expectations are very similar, very similar. [CS]: Yeah. So you didn't find there were like different expectations. They were pretty similar. [HS]:Similar in the in the broad sense because I think in my generation, you're still

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expected to marry who your parents would have thought of for you? You would follow a career part that they would have liked for you? I don't think that would be...Well today it would be different. But back in the day if we compare in the 60s. I

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mean we may have had more opportunities growing up in bigger cities, but I think the expectations were very similar. [CS]: And would you say um those expectations would be similar for like someone that's born and brought up in Canada like a Sikh or like do you

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still think that would be kind of similar? [HS]: It depends. So if it's still the first generation, they brought the same set of values with them and their expectations were perhaps even higher than maybe in India, because they so desperately wanted to hold on to stuff they left

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back. So they were in a time warp, I feel more than us. So if anything, they expected it more than.... Complete obedience and you know, we may have had a little leeway but I don't think no, here was worse. Yeah. [CS]: Yeah. So how

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would you say religion has shaped your identity and how have you kept that identity with yourself? Like outside of um your home and the Gurdwara? [HS]: Uh the good thing now is we came at a time where people recognize Sikhs here because when I grew up in

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England, it was hard because no one, I think there was much more open racism at that time. So, you found it hard to express who you were, I feel, but by the time I came here, which is when? 20 years ago, Sikhs were known here.

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I didn't have to prove who you were, explain who you were. If I was wearing...in fact, I remember going somewhere and I had a little Khanda and they just said, oh um so you're a Sikh, right? So yeah, how'd you know? I can see your Khanda. So that's interesting because

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I mean in England, no, not back then in the 70s when I was there. I think because we've been around for much longer uh we're recognize where they understand who we are. [CS]: Yeah. Like as time progressed, I'd say there was like more recognition of the Sikh faith.

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Yeah. [HS]: Yes. Because now when I visit family in England over the years, you know, after leaving it has changed for sure there too, it's a far cry from the 70s where I remember I was followed around, I was coming home from school and this guy kept saying, "Paki,

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Paki" because we were brown , right. It was open racism, so. [CS]: I feel like people back then, especially weren't as educated like about different religions and stuff. Like even now like I say some people aren't but it's way better than it was back in the day. More people are educated about different

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religions, different faiths and how people identify themselves. [HS]: And I feel Canadians uh accepted it earlier, because [indistinguishable] for so long. [CS]: Yeah, for sure, I agree with that. [HS]: Because in England, although my family has been there since the 60s, a lot of racism, which they encountered, I encountered while I was there.

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Here, I won't say it's not there. It's a kind of subtle it's there. I think everyone is too scared to say anything because of the tolerance and you know the your rights et cetera. But back then nobody cares here started because you didn't look like, you know, people over there. [CS]: Yeah, that's

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for sure. And what do you think are some activities or traditions that your family has kept intact even even though like you weren't living in India or like weren't living back home. So what's something like you have stuck by even while living in a foreign country?

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[HS]: I think it's been easier because you can shout about who you are. Like I would have my Diwali lights and my neighbors might not know about it. They recognize it. I don't have to explain it. It's not it's not Halloween. It's not Guy Fawkes Day. Like in England

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why do you have the lights on? It's not Guy Fawkes today. They have a Guy Fawkes in November and it used to be close to Diwali. We have to explain why we have the lights and blah blah and all that. But I think here it's

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a little easier. And also because we kind of assimilated our neighborhood into this and they came into our homes and they know what we do, They almost expect it every year. Like oh, how come your lights are not on? You know that? [CS]: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Like this past,

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um, Diwali, we had our lights on as well and our neighbors, um, and like even people like around the neighborhood, they were going around watching the fireworks and one of them, they even came up to me and they wanted to know more about Diwali,

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Right? So I had to explain to them like what happened and why we celebrate the Diwali and they're actually like really interested to find out like what we do and why we do it. So I feel like as like time is going on, people are more

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interested and they want to know instead of just like, you know, like hearing things or just assuming things on their own. They want to know what's going on and they're actually interested in it. [HS]: Oh, as well, I don't forget there's a lot of mixed wedding. So

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they've got to know the culture. Yeah. Yeah. Before it was like a one off, I remember my, my cousin married a Brit back in the day. I was such a to do like, you know, they had a Sikh wedding and oh, his wife, and bla bla bla after that kind, it kind of

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set the trend and uh, it's so different now. I remember back in the day you have to kind of inform the neighbors. It's going to be noisy. Of course. I mean you still do it here and now they've come for our wedding. They actually enjoy our wedding

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so different when my daughter got married they came for the Mehndi I mean they knew everything about it, you know, because they've been to other weddings and they were excited that they were invited. It was different. So then you don't feel like you're explaining yourself and

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who I am right what I do. Yeah. I mean who doesn't like Indian food. They're not giving up. You know. [CS]: Exactly. And uh, just a question about your career and what you're currently doing, what motivated you to do what you currently do? [HS]: Well as an immigrant,

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I didn't have much of a choice. I came from a, a great hospitality background. I worked in the finest hotels in Dubai and India. Coming here was just pulling your teeth trying to find a job. Just nothing. [CS]: Yeah. I feel that. [HS]: Yeah. I, you know, and the

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sad part was the person that was supposed to help me here. He owns a string of hotels, he's South Asian himself. But that, that was the sad thing, that he never wanted me to get, get to my potential because he had the opportunity, he had the, you know, he

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could have moved me up into my role, which I could rightfully could do, and do better for him. But he wanted to take me down at the level where I was more useful to him. So then I just gave up. I said, this is not

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gonna work for me. I can't pay the bills at $10 an hour. And I kind of just did odd jobs here and there. And then I got a job in media. It's related to South Asians. So kind of my language has helped me there. But that's the sad part. After

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all that education, you don't get to use it because no one can understand what you bring to the table. [CS]: Mm hmm. And I feel like, yeah, I feel like that's the case for many like South Asians that come to Canada newcomers. They like, it's, it's difficult

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for them finding a job or a career path related to like their education or qualifications. It's very difficult. [HS]: Hey, I understand when you come as a doctor or medical professional because you need to redo some sort of part of your exams etcetera because the country is different

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and you're dealing with different rules and regulations. But if you've done something like me, honestly, I mean why would it not translate here? Just that if you don't meet the right people, you're done. [CS]: Yeah, exactly. Especially people that like try to put you down and try to like keep you below

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themselves in a sense. As you mentioned, it's very difficult in that situation. Especially. Yeah. [HS]: Yeah. And it's it's a strange thing that this particular gentleman had a daughter and a son who were not interested in this business. I remember her speaking to me, he was sending her

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to Cornell, you know, the finest school for hospitality. And she was talking to me, I said, oh, that's great, you know, because I did the same thing, but in England and I said, oh, you must be looking forward. I'm not interested. My dad wants me to do it. So here

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goes the South Asian parent who says you've got to do this because it's what I want you to do. Yeah. You know? So yeah. And she had absolutely no interest and the girl probably wanted to do something entirely different. [CS]: Yeah. I think like some children

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are influenced by like their parents and what their parents like expect for them in terms of like the career pathway, but like I've heard many stories like that and this one from you. But like personally from my experience, my parents have like, they've never forced me

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or my siblings um like about what we want to do in the future, right? So just like um I'm currently uh doing a biology major because I'm trying to go to dental school after post secondary, right? So that's my personal choice. But like when I tell

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most people that they're like, oh, like typical brown parents, they probably wanted you to become a doctor, right? And I'm like, oh, it's actually the total opposite. They always told me I could do whatever I want to do as long as it makes me happy, but

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I just chose that career pathway and I've stuck by it, right? That's funny. Yeah. Like I feel like now it's kind of changing because the children are deciding what to do on their own, but still like the influence from your parents is still kind of there

00:30:51.170 - 00:31:10.140

in like some capacity. [HS]: It's there. I mean this is interesting. We will have a fixed school group and we were just going over our schools years And and they, most of them agreed with me. Uh so I was great at economics and history and geography and art, basically not

00:31:10.140 - 00:31:26.990

the sciences. I come home one day and my parents said not, we're going to put you back in the science stream, you know, we need a doctor in the family, you know? And the next thing, you know, I'm taken away into the sciences and I am

00:31:26.990 - 00:31:44.340

miserable because I'm not a physics chemistry person. I love human biology. Biology is great. Not the rest of it. Or math. And my teacher noticed and I was really going down in my grades and I used to do really well in the other classes. So she took me aside

00:31:44.340 - 00:32:01.840

and I told her what had happened and I could see you were really miserable since you moved and she said, okay, this needs to be fixed So back in that day, I remember she called my parents in and she wants to speak to them and she said it's

00:32:01.840 - 00:32:21.190

not working for her. I'm ever so grateful to her because she said this is not for you. If it was left to my family, they would have said we need a doctor. [CS]: Yeah. Yeah. Like your teacher notices what kind of like... [HS]: How bad it was. Yeah.

00:32:21.200 - 00:32:36.270

[CS]: Like what what like fields you're interested in or like what courses you're interested and I feel like your teacher knows you better in that sense compared to your parents sometimes. And it worked out great for you because your teacher spoke to your parents, right? [HS]: I mean

00:32:36.270 - 00:32:51.050

she's said, I'm really concerned for her. Such a bright student. She was just going down in her grades, and she's miserable because I can see she's not happy at all. So I'm glad that was the case. You know? It's not always like sometimes you're just forced in

00:32:51.060 - 00:33:06.940

to that field and it's not what you want to do. [CS]: Yeah. And I feel like if you're forced to do something, like forced to do a certain job later on in your life, you like eventually you might start to regret it, you might see yourself like being

00:33:06.940 - 00:33:28.960

somewhere else compared to where you were like during that time. [HS]: So why would you like regret stuff and later it's too late. Yeah. [CS]: Yeah, for sure. And so you mentioned that you did um of course related to hospitality. Um can you recall anything that had a

00:33:28.960 - 00:33:47.200

major influence in your life. As you think back that made you like go towards that. [HS]: You're gonna love this. So I was in school uh when I was doing my high school in England, I remember talking to my parents and I said you know it's almost coming

00:33:47.200 - 00:34:06.130

to an end and blah blah. They said, fine yeah, so you can come back. So by then they had moved to Iran, so they were not in India any more. I said yeah, but everyone's going to university then they said no, but you know, it might be time to think

00:34:06.130 - 00:34:27.270

about getting you married. That was what, I think I was uh nineteen. [CS]: Nineteen, wow. Well, so I said, but that's not everybody is doing. But is that what you want to do? But the thing is don't forget it. No one has instilled that in you. You're just

00:34:27.280 - 00:34:43.870

shooting arrows in the dark. What I knew was I didn't want to go home and get married. I knew that, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. That's two different things, but it's between a rock and a hard place. Yeah. I remember my friend, a good friend

00:34:43.870 - 00:35:02.270

was applying for hotel management, hospitality management. So I said, so what are you doing? Are you getting these forms for what? And she told me this is what I'm doing. I said can I do it too? And then we talked and she said you know I've always been passionate about...This was somebody

00:35:02.270 - 00:35:19.560

who knew that this is what she wants. I kind of just jumped on that bandwagon. And the next thing you know, I, I got in and I said, okay, this is good. And then I actually enjoyed it very much. I mean thanks to her. It

00:35:19.570 - 00:35:41.360

wasn't something I would have maybe picked, but I didn't, I just had to make a quick decision at that point. [CS]: Yeah. And you were happy with it right? Like, yeah, that's what matters most. Yeah. So yeah. Um, as you mentioned, um, you do have children and

00:35:41.360 - 00:35:58.730

I would like to ask how you managed to like pass on traditions or like certain beliefs to your children. [HS]: This one's a little tricky because I felt I was...So in the Middle East, Friday was your Sunday. So every Friday we had to go to the

00:35:58.740 - 00:36:17.230

gurdwara and I could see my daughter didn't always want to go Because I lived with them after I lost my husband, I was living with my parents. Um, I mean that's not necessarily what she wanted, but she would come along because she had no

00:36:17.240 - 00:36:34.330

choice. So when we moved here, I started to say, you feel like coming, you can come because by then she was a teenager and I thought I shouldn't enforce my will on her because I didn't like what was done. So I wanted to be a little

00:36:34.330 - 00:36:50.670

more free with her. You know her. So this is fast forward to when she was getting married and I, I kind of assume, okay, so I guess she doesn't want an Indian wedding because she's marrying an Italian and I just left it to her because I

00:36:50.670 - 00:37:09.550

think by that time, by that point obviously it was her decision came and that was all the fine, then she came to me and she said, but when are we discussing the gurdwara wedding? Oh, you actually want one. She said of course I'm going to have one. So I

00:37:09.550 - 00:37:28.070

think when you leave them, I feel this is my observation. She comes when she feels like coming, but she will ask to come, which is of your own free will. She may not know the prayers, she may not understand it, but it gives her a

00:37:28.080 - 00:37:45.490

sense of comfort. She will. Even now she has two kids. So since then maybe we'll take the kids. I say it's all up to you. If they like going, we can go. Yeah. So I think with her it's been that and now she'll ask me, oh so what is it

00:37:45.500 - 00:37:58.100

we do at Diwali. Can you come and maybe bring something so the kids can see what they do. So I had a Diwali lunch this year and I showed them, you know, I had diyas and all that. So this is like an Indian Christmas, I would

00:37:58.110 - 00:38:16.550

explain because they really miss me. So it depends on her what tradition she carries forward and just feel it's my job to just kind of tell her and show her, I feel you can't force anyone. [CS]: Yeah. Yeah, forcing is not the way to do it because

00:38:16.550 - 00:38:30.660

like even if you force your children, like when they're young, like you might get them to go to like, let's say the gurdwara with your follow certain traditions, but if like you're forcing them later on in life when they grow up, they're gonna move out

00:38:30.660 - 00:38:43.100

like start their own families, they might just drop all of that whereas like if you let them free while you're, while they're young, they will actually like, like as you said, your daughter came up to you and she was like when are we going

00:38:43.100 - 00:39:00.480

to discuss the gurdwara wedding. So that kind of came to you by surprise and she was actually interested in that because as you said, you gave her that freedom. Yeah, so I feel like that's very important and like in today's day you do kind of have

00:39:00.480 - 00:39:18.980

that freedom but there still some families that are really strict with it and don't get that freedom to their children. [HS]: Yeah and I think the first generation is very different if you don't have an open mind, you're not going to do that anyway. So

00:39:18.990 - 00:39:33.500

since I have seen it done to me, I didn't want to do it to her. I didn't feel it was right. And that's when it comes from them, you know, you feel like going, you know it's your choice. [CS]: Yeah. And you always like learn from your

00:39:33.500 - 00:39:49.250

experience, your past what you've been through. That's what teaches you like what you want to pass on to. Let's say your kids, your grandkids or even the community as a whole. Like it teaches you a lot about what you want to decide to pass on, right?

00:39:49.620 - 00:40:09.370

[HS]: I think so yeah. [CS]: Um what would you say is your biggest achievement in life so far? [HS]: Huh uh huh. It's kind of hard but I would say when I talk to people and you say you moved here more than 20 years ago all by yourself with your daughter at that

00:40:09.380 - 00:40:25.530

time I maybe didn't think what a big deal it was but I do feel that was my greatest achievement that I actually did it all on my own. You know, whichever way we did it. We struggled. But I mean I will never find my career path

00:40:25.540 - 00:40:44.470

because that's all gone now right. I mean I just cannot even think about it. But at least one generation sacrifice that the next one is comfortable, you know a good education, not that we didn't is just it's not Canadian. I think the next generation starts

00:40:44.470 - 00:41:01.490

with that and you're not at a disadvantage now. You can't get a job because you do you know the whole thing but you get them off on the right foot. [CS]: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Like even um I've heard stories and from my personal experience,

00:41:01.490 - 00:41:16.140

like when my dad decided to come to Canada, he was really young. I'd say like 20 years old, maybe he came here alone, right? And like even now and then like my parents got married, my dad went back to India, got married, then my mom came

00:41:16.140 - 00:41:30.800

here and now they're always telling us, they're like, yeah, like, you know, we had everything in India, we could have stayed there, lived like, you know, everything. [HS]: Like kings and queens. [CS]: Yeah, they're always saying that they're like, we could have like lived there properly. We didn't have to do

00:41:30.800 - 00:41:46.530

anything, but we decided to come here like for our children, you know, so they could have a better future in Canada compared to Punjab. So like I feel like what you said is true. Like one generation does sacrifice. So like the next one can, you know,

00:41:46.710 - 00:42:03.620

have the opportunities that they deserve. And I totally agree with you. Um and like I'd say us as children, like we kind of do have to give back to our parents in that sense since they like left everything there for us and they just came here

00:42:03.630 - 00:42:20.100

because it's a land of better opportunities, right? [HS]: Yeah, that's true. I mean, so I say I can't even dwell on myself, you know, it's done. It's done. I mean at least we moved when we did and she's off to a better life and she met somebody she's

00:42:20.110 - 00:42:37.380

happy with, the kids and all that. Then it's all worth it, right. And you've lived your life. So it's, I mean I've done well in defense. I have friends and I have a home and I have my own life here, but it could have been different, but

00:42:37.390 - 00:42:56.960

what's done is done. You know, and we just have to look forward. Um, hopefully, you know, the local community just to your point, I hope they begin to understand the kind of value we bring when you come from other countries. You just need to listen to us and allow

00:42:56.960 - 00:43:12.940

us. Give us the opportunity to work and show you what we can do for you. [CS]: Yeah, exactly. Mm. And how would you say you would pass on that knowledge to like others in the community like what you brought with you. How would you pass that

00:43:12.940 - 00:43:30.200

on? [HS]: I think once they get to know you, it's even your neighbors when they don't know you. It's, it's kind of, you know, it's a funny story. Again, my neighbor very lovely. They're Scottish. I got to know them and uh, her in-laws were here and

00:43:30.200 - 00:43:47.100

so I had borrowed something from my friend and I was going across to return it, and I rang the bell and her mother in law who had never met me, she opens the door and she goes, no, we're not buying anything love. It's okay. I said, you know, I

00:43:47.110 - 00:44:03.000

borrowed this from Margaret and I just want to return it. Honestly, it was an honest mistake, I'm not saying but it was just that exposure and she felt so bad when Margaret came home and she said you know she is my friend, she's my neighbor and I said

00:44:03.010 - 00:44:20.740

that's okay, it's totally fine and you're not gonna believe it. The mom invited herself over one day, we had this wonderful afternoon because she was from England and I had lived there and there was so much in common and after that our equation was

00:44:20.750 - 00:44:38.850

different. But then this is the thing you got a, it's a one on one kind of a process. It takes time. [CS]: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So you got to know each other better, right? [HS]: But like you said to to extend it to the broader community

00:44:38.850 - 00:44:58.180

unless we open ourselves, and they're open, it's like, you know how the Muslims have this uh at Ramadan you can go and eat with the family, not in Covid, but before you must project where you go into their homes and you break the fast with them.

00:44:58.190 - 00:45:16.930

but in my family to eat with you and then they get to learn about it. So it's more initiatives like that needs to be done. Yeah. The the person behind the veil and the scarf and whatever. [CS]: Yeah. Like after we get to know the person and that

00:45:16.930 - 00:45:32.180

would be like if both sides are like willing to, you know, interact learn about each other and just learn about like the traditions that each side carries and all that. [HS]: Yeah because end of the day, you know everybody has a lot of goodness in them and

00:45:32.190 - 00:45:52.010

if you just can open your eyes and your mind and accept what that person is bringing. [CS]: Yeah and what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self, knowing what you know now. [HS]: Well if you ever migrate do it in your early years

00:45:52.020 - 00:46:07.000

don't do it in your later years. [CS]: Yeah, much easier in earlier years. [HS]: I was just speaking of struggle and that's the thing with me, I kind of did it twice because I could have stayed in England, I just didn't want to stay. That was the perfect age. I

00:46:07.000 - 00:46:24.360

was in my twenties and if I had stayed then the passage would have been much easier. Yeah and then when I did it at forties, it was so hard, I mean it wasn't planned that way. Mhm. But I am just knowing that I wish I had ever,

00:46:24.370 - 00:46:39.500

if I had ever planned it would have been in my younger days like yeah. [CS]: And migrating like in your earlier years it's beneficial in many ways I'd say like in terms of career pathways, career options that you have and even just starting to like you know

00:46:39.880 - 00:47:00.060

um build homes, buy homes, you know, start a family all that I feel like it's easier if you migrate like at a younger age compared to... [HS]: Definitely. You're more marketable, you are employable. You have more energy, drive. As you get older, you know, it's like I've done

00:47:00.060 - 00:47:15.330

this. I don't want to do this again. [CS]: Yeah. You have more to offer while you're still young. More to offer to the community, to your family. Just like a different type of energy. Right? [HS]: Well I feel you can offer a lot even as your experience and your age

00:47:15.330 - 00:47:30.480

like at 60 there's a lot I can do. It's just that if you're starting up and and it's a new country. I mean you really need that energy and that. [CS]: Yeah, for sure. I agree with that. And is there anything you would like to touch on that

00:47:30.480 - 00:47:54.900

we have not covered in this interview? Any advice? Do you have anything? [HS]: I don't know really. I would just say, I mean look if we're gonna touch on racism and look for inequalities we'll find them. Yeah. All the ways, in every country because we

00:47:54.910 - 00:48:13.930

are not, we're not indigenous people. That's not who we are. Yeah. It doesn't matter what you look like. You can intermarry and there's a lot of that too. Like you know, you could be...it happened to a colleague of mine. He's married to a white person and you know

00:48:13.930 - 00:48:30.390

and then somebody made a remark and then you think just because people don't look the same right? You assume they're not together. Right now it should be the other way around. You just have to be more tolerant and like I said if you look for issues you're going

00:48:30.390 - 00:48:47.750

to find them. You just have to kind of keep your mind open and accept what's going on around you. Embrace the good and you know remain you're true to yourself. I think that's what I can say. [CS]: Yeah. And just one last question based on what you just

00:48:47.750 - 00:49:13.280

touched on. Um do you recall any instances of discrimination happening around you? Like when you came to Canada or anywhere like other than India right? [HS]: It has happened. Uh And I I was quite upset about it. I tried to escalate it but it wasn't taken seriously.

00:49:13.870 - 00:49:27.500

As I asked him, I took my dad, my dad. I came home one day and said he had some sort of a rash. So I was worried about herpes. And I said well instead of going to the doctor and maybe we could just go to a walk-in

00:49:27.510 - 00:49:43.810

because it seemed like he was um worried. So I went into the pharmacy. Pharmacists are really good. You know go there and they can actually tell you okay maybe take this, take that if you cannot get to a doctor right, that's what they say a pharmacist is

00:49:43.810 - 00:49:59.520

good. And I made him sit down and he's a stubborn gentleman and made him sit down and he said you know I'll go get somebody and when I talked to the pharmacist I said you know I've got my dad she couldn't see him from where she

00:49:59.520 - 00:50:17.110

was. I said can you look at him because it was late at night at the time you get to a doctor, but maybe in the meantime you could look at him. She goes yeah, yeah, yeah, I can do that. Then the minute I brought him around, she goes, Oh... She made an excuse

00:50:17.110 - 00:50:34.320

and she said, oh, I can't see him. It was so obvious. So I said, is there something wrong and then she says no, no, no. You know, I, I just have to, I don't know. She made some story, some excuses. It was so obvious. I mean from

00:50:34.320 - 00:50:56.500

the corner and we came in front of her and I actually wrote to the corporate office, but you know, somebody called me once. But nothing was done. Maybe now things may have been different, but it was a few years ago. [CS]: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like now things are comparatively like

00:50:56.500 - 00:51:18.330

very different. [HS]: But you needn't be this way. You know, especially in a situation like this where somebody is in pain or in trouble. I'm just bringing him willy nilly. It's your profession. You said you would look at him and then you said no. What am I to make of it?

00:51:18.330 - 00:51:35.180

[CS]: And being like a medical professional or any, any like type of field, you should ensure that no one is like, you know, um, judged based up based off with their religion, race or even like their age, gender, anything like that prejudice definitely should not be there. You

00:51:35.180 - 00:51:51.100

know, especially in today's day. Like we've learned from past experiences. [HS]: And sometimes I feel it's my name, Harleen can be kind of generic if nobody understands, you know, it's a very Punjabi name but a lot of people may not. So when I guess that you can

00:51:51.100 - 00:52:09.950

see the look on their face. Oh, she's Indian. They were expecting somebody else. What happened to? [CS]: Yeah, it happens. It's very common. [HS]: But like I said, if you look for these things you find many, many many. [CS]: Yeah, definitely. You can find them everywhere. Even in

00:52:09.950 - 00:52:28.150

Canada. You just like might not see it as much but it's definitely there. [HS]: It's subtly there. I think it's everywhere and I don't see it ever leaving the world. [CS]: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It won't until everyone decides to educate themselves and you know, just like learn about each

00:52:28.150 - 00:52:44.490

other and each other's faith, religion, everything. Yeah. Anyways, um that concludes the interview. Thank you for your time. Thank you for helping me with my interview. I really appreciate it. [HS]: Next time. I just didn't have more time today.